Wayne

Thanks for such a well spoken and heart felt piece. You are in an amazing position to help those who are struggling. Bless you as you give your time and energy in this effort.

Thanks

Thanks so much for opening up your heart to us.  If only the church would listen to those who know the most about the ones among us who were born gay.

You said: "God could easily make gay people straight if He so chose."

Do you believe that God made you gay and does he choose the orientation of each of us.  Wouldn't that follow if God COULD make the gays straight, that he must have made some not straight. 

How can anyone today be certain that Paul was not writing about the conditions in his day--where it was most common for Romans to be married, but have a young male lover--and is there any indication that true homosexuality was even known then--only homosexual acts--which are as old as history, and a form of domination for many.  If promiscuity in either sex is equally sinful, why is only monogamous heterosexual marriage "blessed" as natural, but monogamous homosexual marriage is fornication.  Fornication means sexual intercourse between a man and woman who are not married to each other; just as "adultery" does not mean taking another woman as a wife, but taking a woman who is the property of a man--either father or husband. 

We do injustice to the Bible in attempting to reinterpret it by today's perceptions rather than determining the worldview and practices of two millennia earlier.

If anyone believes "love" can be a sin when expressed mutually between consenting adults, then I respect that personal belief.  However, to extrapolate from  a private biblical interpretation to the general should only guide that individual's actions--no others.  Unfortunately, the church does not allow for freedom of conscience in this and many other actions. 

Thanks for your acknowledgment and observations.

As I mention in my article, I believe God made Adam and Eve perfect without sin. As a result of sin, I believe many are born with inclinations God did not intend. What every one of us is born with is the power to choose. That is what God holds us responsible for. He asks us to deny self. He advises us to do His will, not our will.

In stating that God could make us straight if He wanted to, I believe that He has the power to change my orientation. He may find it to be His will to leave me in my current orientation, as changing it is no guarantee that I would fall to the temptations that face a straight man. 

I take God's word literally and recommend that anyone who opens His word seeking truth, pray for guidance before reading. The Holy Spirit will guide you to truth. No human can tell you how to live your life. Only God can be your guide. You answer to no one else.

Prayers and Blessings to you,

Wayne

I believe that it is certainly possible for a human to repress his innermost desires:  a heterosexual can deliberately choose to remain celibate for an entire lifetime, so can a homosexual person.

However, to insist that it is only the homosexual who must forever repress her normal, most human expressions of love is considered the "Christian way" while no one would insist the same for a heterosexual.  What affect does it have on a child to tell her that because she is "gay" that she is not God's ideal.  That seems to be what is heard, that somehow she is imperfect and can never reach that "perfect ideal" unless she surrenders who she really "is." 

The statement was made that God could choose to change our eye color from brown to white--an absurd comment completely unsupported by other than someone's hopes and wishes.  If that has ever been observed, we should so be informed.

For a parent with a gay child to teach, train, or even expect that the normal and God-given physical expressions of love and initimacy will always be sinful is to send them into a life of promiscuity, which you surely must have observed.  There is no difference than it would be for telling your heterosexual child that celibacy is a life-long task that must be practiced.

If a gay person wishes to adopt a celibate lifestyle, that is a very personal choice; but to insist that for a Christian it is the only way is to demand the almost impossible--as objective evidence surely discloses. If someone strongly desires to become heterosexual, is it because of a personal desire, or that his religious community refuses to accept him.  What type of ministry does that include and what is the success rate.  I have never seen independent studies showing the results of "change" ministries.  The endeavor to "change" one's sexual orientation surely must be predicated on the proposition that heterosexuality is the only "good and proper" expression, and all else is sinful and unChristian.  If that is a wrong conclusion, I am willing to be informed.

I have studied this subject at seminary level and am acquainted with the various textual interpretation, but relying on two or three millennia old assertions on that one subject, while using the latest scientific knowledge on most other subjects is to subject the "Bible-believers" to ridicule.  We have nothing in the Bible that gives evidence that homosexuality as a life-long orientation was mentioned:  only that homosexual activity was sinful, just as heterosexual promiscuity.

Why would the Hebrew writers choose to mention that David's love for Jonathan was far greater than the love of women if there was not a special component or relationship between them--and that David greeted him with a kiss.  Bisexuality is quite common, and is there any recognition that the homosexual acts recorded in the Bible may not have been participated in by bisexuals or curiosity--as it was so common in the Hellenistic era--it could well have been that it was what Paul was referring to in Romans--which, BTW, was specifically addressing the pagans, and not Christians. Monogamous marriage for gays would surely drastically eliminate some of the "gay lifestyle" that is excoriated, and should be encouraged if the desire to eliminate promiscuity is the main objective.  Is there any objective evidence that "gayness" can be changed permanently, or is it only actions that can be controlled.

I have no gay children, but do know parents and grandparents of gay children and the anathema directed toward this is very painful to observe.  God did not desire Down's syndrome babies; deformed or anencephalic, and many other anamolies, but to say that they can "overcome" such anomalies is a discouraging concept.  Can a child with CP, or Downs, or many other imperfections, simply "overcome them."  If we believe in a God who desires everyone to be "perfect" and represent the ideal in this world, it is not a religion that is powerfully attractive, except perhaps to the masochist.

Elaine, 

Studying  the subject of homosexuality at the "seminary level" isn't saying much. It's possible to get a degree from even well known seminaries and not study the Bible at all. It is, nowadays, possible, even probable, depending on which school you attend, to find all studies in the area primarily propaganda exercises advancing ridiculous, even absurd, theories on sexuality.

The idea that the love of David and Jonathan was homosexual based on the fact that they kissed, is nonsense, even by today's standards. In certain countries, a kiss between men is a common greeting. To accuse them of homosexuality, based on that common practice, might invite a beating or even decapitation, depending on the circumstances.

Note a few of the people who kissed in the Bible, all men:

Jacob and Laban, Genesis 29:13.

Samuel and David, 1 Samuel 10:1

Absalom routinely kissed the men of Israel who brought a cause to him, 2 Samuel, 15:5

David and Barzillai, 2 Samuel 19:39

Joab and Amasa, 2 Samuel 20:9

If you learned, in seminary, that men, in Biblical times, who kissed each other, were gay or bisexual, well LOLOLOL.

I attended a Mennonite seminary, which is known in the religious world as one of the most conservative and fundamentalists of all denominations.  After reading Inga's sources, there is a great similarity in comparison and explanation of terms used.   

The mention of David loving Jonathan "more than the love of women" was more important than the kissing, as it is normal in half of the world.  It is only an inference, but then much of the Bible we use is on "inference."   

The real significance is on how  we read and interpret the Bible, and how we act upon it.  How and why is it one of the "worst of sins" when it never mentioned in the Decalogue or by Jesus and how few sermons have we heard on honoring our parents, lying, even stealing and the many manifestations of breaking those laws.  Those impact other people, while mutual homosexual attachment affects only the two involved--yet it seems to infuriate more "straights" than most any other subject.  I have yet to hear how others are harmed by monogamous gay marriage. It can only offend others' sensitivity just like women wearing pants in Sudan!
 

Inga,

Thank you for the link to Peter Ould's website. To describe it as "gold, pure gold" might be a bit much. It certainly appears that he has done his homework. He graciously exposes some gay revisionists as either incompetent or dishonest in their handling of the documents bearing on the subject. While this is not news to me, it's encouraging to see that others are realizing it. He also provides some valuable source material in the area of lexicography

Elaine,

Did you not also attend a Jesuit university?. Are you sure that your views on homosexuality were not derived from your experience there? One study estimated that since the seventies, in some RC seminaries, the number of gay students exceeded 50%. I would expect a strong gay affirming voice to be heard from the bowels of the Papacy. Their treatment center for pedophile priests in New Mexico attempted to change pedophile priests into homosexual priests.

 I would agree that priests who are homosexual are less of a menace to the public than those who attack and violate children. Tragically, the treatment center in New Mexico has apparently closed. Some of the leaders died from AIDS, so it was difficult for the ministry to continue.

The Mennonites, contrary to the impression that you give, appear to have been fairly consistent in their opposition to homosexuality.  

Notice the following closing remark from a document on homosexuality prepared by the  from the Canadian Conference of Mennonite Brethren:

 "We encourage all homosexuals to give up their lifestyle and find healing in Christ. We call on all persons who struggle with questions of sexual impropriety to find release through forgiveness and transformed living. "

http://www.mbconf.ca/home/products_and_services/resources/theology/pamplet_series/homosexuality_a_compassionate_yet_firm_response/

Here is an overview of the various Mennonite organizations response to the issue of homosexuality:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_men.htm

 Notice that the Mennonites have expelled some churches for their homosexual advocacy. Perhaps the seminary you attended is under censure from a Mennonite administrative board? That might explain how you could, with a straight face, invoke the Mennonites, while setting forth a position which many of them abhor.

Thanks gwalter!  You are correct.  It is "FEAR".  Fear of the unknown. Lack of understanding frequently creates a phobia. I may not understand someone who chases women. This might cause me to distance myself. However if that individual wants to know more about God and His love, I should be willing to listen to his coordinates - the things that cause his struggle. If he wants to share those things with me, I might be equipped with strengths that God has provided to help him on his journey to better knowing and experiencing God.

It is very much the same for homosexuals. Many who want to know God and are settling for partial truths, only do so because scholared pastors and church members have not been active in demonstrating God's love.  

Therefore many have settled for "their" feelings, which have become self truths, instead of exploring and recognizing God's truths and His call to self denial.  Few people look past "self".  You've heard the saying... "If it feels good, do it". I heard it. I heard it in the seventies, the eighties, the nineties... and it certainly has not stopped.  Morals decay daily. Proverbs 14:12 says; "There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death."  Our beliefs and actions should be carefully guided by God's word. Willingness to obey is crucial to our Christian walk.

God's love is unconditional. Man's love frequently strays from Christ's model, and is based on superficial values like beauty, money, sex, comfort.

Romans 1:24 says; "Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another." This is a clear example of choosing selfish desires over God's will.

Christians are called to a higher service than the rest of mankind. We have failed at many things, but if we don't give up, I believe God provides grace and power to overcome our sins. It's a combination of our choice and effort, divine power, encouragement from others, the power of prayer and steadfastness.

Like everyone else, homosexually oriented people need hugs, heart felt handshakes, smiles, a listening ear, spiritual guidance and understanding of their feelings.  If we are humble, loving, encouraging and providing truth, the Holy Spirit takes over and convinces the sinner in his or her heart. God only asks that we share the truth in a loving way and let him do the rest. I'm a living testimony to such an experience.

Your comments are very helpful and encouraging,

God bless,

Wayne Blakely

I can assure you, Hansen, that I never heard the word "homosexual" used while attending the Jesuit university.  FYI, my undergraduate degree there was in Organizational Behavior.  To associate the Jesuit university with the pedophile priests is a far reach and search for an association that is not substantiated.

Nor, did I say that the Mennonite seminary supported homsexuality, but only that their linguistic and textual interpretations on the few scriptures supported Inga's conclusions. 

It would help to have the facts straight before making accusations.

I'm so sorry Elaine. I must have responded too hastily. Just to be clear, are you saying that the Mennonite seminary which you attended held a position approximating that of Br. Ould? Is that what you mean when you refer to the "sources" Inga cited?

 As for you, do you agree with Br. Ould yourself? He points out the sloppy use of sources by those carrying water for the homosexuals. Do you agree with his analysis? He is also fairly confident in contradicting gay apologists regarding the use of a disputed term in the NT:

" In my previous post in this series I looked at the Greek word arsenokoites. We looked at what it’s literal meaning was, what the first century context of the word was and we explored a number of revisionist arguments about what St Paul might have meant when he uses the word in two of his letters. We discovered that the contemporary Rabbinic discourse understood the word to refer to all male to male sexual activity, and we found out that none of the other literature from the period provided an alternative meaning, despite the suggestion of some revisionists that arsenokoites referred to a narrowed range of sexual activity (eg rape or cultic prostitution). Indeed, some of the revisionist arguments were shown to refer to passages where the word arsenokoites or its derivatives didn’t even occur!"

Br. Ould refers to himself as a  post homosexual rather than an xgay. What do you make of that? If I understand him correctly, just as Mr. Wayne, he was transformed by Christian conversion and now enjoys a heterosexual marriage.

 How do the testimony of Mr. Wayne and Br. Ould impact your understanding of the issue?

For the record... I choose to obey God's word, yet was born with a homosexual orientation. Being born with a sinful nature, God has provided me with choices to follow His word or I can choose to follow my feelings which are not a guarantee of truth.

Wayne Blakely

A little off topic ... but not really... It benefits my continual walk. 

I have just encountered the most difficult thing in life. SELF! For days I have been wrangling over the acceptance and approval of another. My stomach in knots. My heart in my throat. Begging for approval.

I read positive influences sent to me by a friend, with a negative slant and labored so unnecessarily over them. Why? What is there to be gained by approval?  Permission? Permission to do what I want to do? I kept making responses to my friend that were basically begging for what had already been given. But I couldn’t take my eyes off myself and what I wanted.

Where was God in all this? Yes … I was talking to Him. I was pleading. But was I ready for the revelation God was about to provide me?  A mirror!  A look at myself on a very bad hair day. Remember God won’t give us more than we can handle.

I attended my weekly “Binding The Wounds” class and disclosed that I had a misunderstanding with a friend that was causing me a great deal of emotional turmoil.  It all had to do with my article. Largely about myself. Also my direction in life and where God is and isn’t leading me. I was miserable with myself.

Then someone commented and said you know sometimes two people can have the opposite opinion about something and both be right. It hit me like a brick. That’s where it started. The brick cracked me enough to start letting God’s important message get through to me.

When I got home an email from my friend began to chide me for my naggings and impositions of my negative comments. Positive comments that I somehow had turned negative. My impatience with him was eating me. In his email he told me I needed to get focused on my daily communication and devotion to God. Something I of course thought I was doing already. He gave me a link to some podcasts to listen to. http://www.theadventure.org/podcasts/162   I was so angry about being chastised for wanting to get together and argue my points, that I didn’t even pay much attention to the rest of the email. Bitterly I got on my knees as I do each evening and barely got my prayer out and crawled into bed.

I thought I would never fall asleep. My bitterness ate and ate at me. I thought I was giving it to God, but I kept taking it back and chewing on it. I’d sleep and hour and wake up and be bitter some more. Reluctantly I got up and 3:45 AM and fed the dogs who were nudging me to tend to them.  Great! Now I would have to try and fall asleep again. Finally I pulled myself out of bed and knelt and prayed in earnest. Tearfully… as I knew something was very wrong in my focus. It was all about me. God was beginning to get through. Me? About me? Why isn’t this someone else’s problem?  I began to see my observations of my friend as being poisoned with “self”.

I got up and sent a stirring revelation of what God had showed me. I realized I was my own problem. I was creating strife where there only need be God’s peace and love for all. I was my own enemy! How could this be? I was so embarrassed. Heavy with guilt over dampening someone else’s spirit with my selfishness. Heavy with remorse and a much needed apology I pressed “send” on the email. Then I went back to the email from the night before that had upset me and click on the podcast link.

Immediately the speaker began to discuss our life journey and how “self” so frequently and easily gets in the way. I couldn’t believe the topic and how it was being preached directly to me and my current experience. God held that mirror right in front of me and said “look!... you’re letting yourself be destroyed by you!”  This verse was read. Philippians 2: 3-5  “Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others better than yourselves. Each of you should look not only to your own interests, but also to the interests of others. Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:” He continued to read and my eyes begin to burn.

The topic continued and God revealed to me how damaging I had been to myself and those around me.  I began to sob. Now that is not a regular thing for me and I believe it was with true conviction. Conviction that God had shown me the very problem I was trying to put on someone else.

Only by allowing Christ to dwell in me, can I be of any service to anyone else. We are all so very unique to one another. Each of our battles is different. But if we only took time with God and listen to what He is saying to us, how much more effective could our efforts be to draw others to Him. Self needs to take a hike!

I am so very blessed to be in the arms of Jesus. Only He truly understands our needs and desires and can correct them when they are not in line with His plan for us. The Devil is so crafty and seeking to find the simplest of ways to break down communication and keep us thinking out ourselves. What we want. What we feel. What we think we need. But we must truly focus on the life of Jesus and His Character to see our own character flaws. I praise God and am so very humbled and blessed to be alive today.

A special thank you to my true friend who wrote me and showed how much he cares by letting God’s truth be revealed to me.

Wayne Blakely

MrWayne,

I really appreciate your honesty in describing your life and how you came back to God from a life of drugs and promiscuity. I have known 3 or 4 other people who have had similar experiences, and it seems they continue to associate homosexuality with the depraved lifestyle in which they were formerly engaged. That is understandable. 

But I also know many gay and lesbian Christians who have not left God, who are chaste until they find a partner with whom they fall in love, and who then form a monogamous, faithful relationship.  Can you understand how their viewpoint might be different from yours?

I know some of the posters here have cast aspersions on "gay theology" but I have spent many years studying the writings of a great many godly theologians, including several who are Adventist, and I believe it is very reasonable to see that the few texts in the Bible about same-sex activity are not written in the context of a loving monogamous relationship. Nor did people at the time the Bible was written understand the concept of people being born with a homosexual orientation.

It is possible to disagree about how to interpret the Bible on this issue, but I think we need to love and welcome homosexuals into our churches and leave it up to the Holy Spirit to convict them if they need to change.

Carrol

I'd be curious to learn of any SDA church which does not welcome penitent homosexuals.

Are not homosexuals welcomed into the church, just as other sinners who are confessing their sinfulness?

Your agenda, Carrol, is to welcome unrepentant homosexuals into the community of faith, as if their is nothing inherently sinful about their sexuality. That in itself is wicked, affirming individuals in their carnal indulgence, instead of rebuking them.

There is no example of consecrated, sanctified homosexual "love"or marriage in Scripture. Homosexuality in the Bible only appears in a negative sense, along with fornication and a list of other carnal indulgences which are products of human sinfulness.

Carrol, for you to attack Scripture as inadequate in addressing this issue is hardly different from the flaming crossdresser who defies Christianity and the truth of God's word. The slight difference is that they are more honest about what they are doing.

Hansen, though Carrol needs no one to come to her defense, I hope she will not hold it against me that I reply. 

I'd like to begin with last statement you made, and work back.  It contains a reference to a "flaming crossdresser."  The negative, derogatory description you put forth is exactly why the church specifically and society in general needs to stop stigmatizing homosexuality.  "Flaming Crossdresser" is essentially a vegetarian insult hurled in the general direction of homosexuals, and while not patently vulgar, like the word "faggot", it is still intended to degrade its intended target.  The very fact that you think it's okay to use such terminology outside of a bar or frathouse is apalling.

You are correct that there is no biblical record of positive homosexual relations in the Bible, which is scarcely less biblical record than exists of positive, heterosexual, monogomous relationships.  There is more history of polygamy, incest, adultery, concubines, and impregnated maidservants than there is of a one man, one woman household.  And the people involved were often God's beloved faithful servants.  Would King David and his wives and children be welcomed in your church today?  Would Abraham and Sarah and Hagar be welcomed?  Would Jacob and Rachel and Leah be welcomed?  What about Adam and Eve and their sons (in law) and daughters (in law)? 

Carrol's "wicked" agenda is to welcome homosexuals into the church.  Period.  There is no need to affirm their inherently sinful nature, since, let me remind you, we all have an inherently sinful nature.  Is their same sex partner clear evidence of their unrepentant nature?  Perhaps.  But isn't obesity clear evidence of a sinful refusal to follow God's outline for our lives?  Of hidden sins of indulgence?  Yet we welcome fat people into the church every sabbath.  You know the ones that hog all of the mac and cheese at potluck, and get two desserts when they go through the line?  My pastor was particularly fat when I was a kid.  Yet we didn't shut the door of the sanctuary when he approached.  We all have sins.  If some are more publicly visible than others, are we to treat the sinner differently?  Is there an appendix in the 28 fundamental beliefs of the church that lists and categorizes sins according to severity?  Homosexuality is worse than Murder which is worse than Lying which is worse than Stealing which is worse than overindulging at the dinner table.  Hmmmmm...

Which brings us to your opening statement, that homosexuals, if repentant, are welcomed into the church.  Well, with people like you that refer to them as "flaming" the welcoming arms can seem cold, indeed.  With people like you that hold a particular revulsion and disdain for their struggle, the community of faith can seem awfully closed.  Carrol advocates widening the door to the church, and expanding the reaches of the Church's communal hug.  For that, you have accused her of advocating a wicked agenda, of attacking scripture, and of being dishonest in her faith. 

Brother, get a life.  If you disagree with Carrol, try to do so in a more civil manner.  She may be too polite to say so, but you're coming across as a judgemental fool; deaf, blind, and dumb by choice. 

Steve, It sounds to me that your apologetic for homosexuality is that it's worth a try, in light of the numerous problems associated with the heterosexual union.

I wonder why the people of God, whose biographies are recorded in Scripture, never thought of that.

 A heterosexual union seemed to work for them, although imperfectly, at times. Luther seemed fairly happy with the married state, considering it the most blessed arrangement to which humanity can attain.

 On the other hand, various gay "couples" whom I met during my work in the gay community in the 90's,  for most monogamy was not even a consideration. Perhaps you would like to distinguish between non Christian couples and Christian gay couples. If you can show me a precedent for such a distinction in Scripture, I'd like to see it.

Otherwise, be true to the Bible and admit that, in Scripture, homosexuality is denounced as a carnal indulgence of the flesh, participated in by worshippers of the false gods eschewed by the  true people of God.

The work of Carrol and others like her is nothing new.

History tells us that in ancient times some people, apparently influential ones, gave space to cultic prostitutes. Deuteronomy 23:17 forbids either males or females from serving as cultic prostitutes; however, according to Scripture,  they were even allowed into the temple: 

1Ki 15:12 He also put away the male <06945> cult <06945> prostitutes <06945> from the land and removed all the idols which his fathers had made.

1Ki 22:46 The remnant of the sodomites <06945> who remained in the days of his father Asa, he expelled from the land.

2Ki 23:7 He also broke down the houses of the male cult <06945> prostitutes <06945> which were in the house of the LORD, where the women were weaving hangings for the Asherah.

Maybe some of the priests of baal, hacked to death by Elijah, prior to his translation, were homosexuals/cultic priests.

The Bible itself denounces the participation of sodomites in  the religious  services of Israel. It also proscribes their very existence.

Dear Carol....

I understand your sympathy for those who are same-sex oriented. I believe the way to express that sympathy is by opening the church doors and arms of its members and helping those who fight this sinful nature with God's Truth which was written for all time, not just the time in which is was written.

What continues to be argued her is "DENYING SELF". Somehow many want to read into, or add to, very straight forward commands by Christ Himself.  WHY?  Why do we find it necessary to twist and turn and add from outside sources and from our selfish desires that which God has very clearly shown displeasure with?

Why are we limiting God? Why do we think we know what is better and that He should have told us something that would have been easier to live with? We are not God! There are millions of people who fight sinful natures and God offers everyone of the choice to do His will and not our will. If we explain away everything that God asks of us because we are not comfortable with it, what purpose is God? 

Do you really think God is not looking out for us in providing His word for all time?

A man's penis created with seminal fluid was designed to fit a woman's vagina waiting to accept the gift of which God has clearly stated its intended use. Whether I am fond of that or not, that's what God told us and declared to us.

Now many want to explain away the verses that condemn homosexuality practices, stating that he was only referring to prostitutes, orgies and the like. I have not found a single Bible that says that. Only people with a desire to change the meaning of God's word to allow them their pleasure.  Do you really think that God designed a man's penis to be put into another man's anus? His waste hole for relieving waste and bacteria. Causing breakage of blood vessels and damage to the internal rectum. What kind of love is that? Certainly not one designed by God!  In all conversation regarding this topic, you will find the description I just gave, ignored, skated around, over looked and rarely if ever discussed. Why?  Because it is powerful and clearly presents itself as not being God's intended function. Thousands and thousands have died due to the passing of many viruses and disease which need not have, if we only were in tune with Christ and glorifying His plan for us. God does not force us to go against His will. We have to choose it.  I chose it for years. It was hard to accept truth, because it was different than what I felt naturally. That doesn't mean I have the divine intervention to change what God has set forth.

Take His word for what it says!  Obey His commands. Pray for the Holy Spirit to give you clarity. There is nothing but joy in Heaven by you accepting the truth He reveals.  You don't lose face.  You gain wisdom and a walk with Christ you never believed possible.

Open the doors of every church and invite every homosexual in. Share God's immense love and truth with them. Let their hearts be convicted and their souls converted. But there is absolutely no guidance from our creator to allow those who CHOOSE to live in sin, to hold offices of those designated for the converted truth seeking souls of Christ.  We are accepted and cleansed by the blood of Jesus, but if we choose our way instead of His we are of no use to anyone! Our self serving pleasure will be our demise and will result in eternal destruction.

My goal is to help those who ache and crave understanding and acceptance. We don't need human acceptance, but we must have God's acceptance. We must first have a desire for Him and all that He has to offer us, even if it goes against what FEELS natural.  Don't let sympathy cloud His truth.

I am praying hard for all of us and especially for those who have difficulty see past what seems so natural to them.

With prayer and God's love,

Wayne Blakely

Hansen, if you think Carrol is suggesting the admittance of male prostitutes into church so they can sodomize worshippers in exchange for tithes and offerings, you and I are reading two different threads.  Carrol no more suggested this than I suggested you abandon your wife for a weekend getaway with your buddy Fred. 

I have no problem admitting that my personal interpretation of  scripture is that God's plan for us does not include homosexual relations.  What I disagree with is the maltreatment of people whose internal wires are arranged in a way that causes them to desire people of the same sex.  Whether they got that way in the womb or because of some abuse or trauma, I don't know.  What I do know is that I can't comprehend someone tritefully and voluntarily opting for a lifestyle that subjects them to familial, societal, and communal blacklisting and abuse.  For some reason that I cannot explain, I am comfortable in my presumption that the homosexual lifestyle is not one chosen out of convenience or amusement. 

You see, Hansen, we are programmed from an early age to think that homosexuals are both lesser people than us, and that their sins are worse than ours.  In fact, it's acceptable to ridicule them, call them names, and use descriptors such as "flaming" when referring to them.  This mentality is one that needs to change.  The idea that homosexuals are an especially hideous breed of sinner needs to change. 

Until this mentality changes, we'll neither be able to succesfully reach out to the homosexual community, nor offer any significant help should we cross paths with them.  Of course, according to the scripture you quoted, we should not help gay people, but we should kick them out of the country and burn down their houses.  Hacking them to pieces like Elijah did, is of course, another scripturally sound alternative. 

As we say in my neighborhood, "Child, Please."  How can you accept that the Bible is right about the sin of homosexuality without faithfully carrying out the sentence commanded by God's word?  Are we being unfaithful to God's directives when we don't banish them, burn down their homes, and hack them to pieces?  If it's right about the sin, why isn't it right about your obligation to punish the sinner as prescribed?  If that's the next step in your crusade against the gays, best of luck.  Most of those guys are fit enough to take on and beat up a dozen overweight, post-middle aged pew potatoes like you and me. 

Hansen, I could fill a book with stories of people who have been treated badly by the church simply because they are homosexuals. Perhaps one brief example will suffice. A gay man - let's call him Jim - had married, hoping it would help him "get over" his attraction to men, but his wife was always aware that something was missing. Several times during their 17-year marriage she asked him if he was having an affair and he assured her that he was being faithful to her. Finally, after she demanded to know what was wrong and why he avoided intimacy with her, he broke down in tears and told her he was gay. Before long, she realized that her marrige could never be what she wanted, so she left him, took their two teenage daughters, and before moving far away she informed everyone in the church that her husband was gay. Now, mind you, they had been Pathfinder and worship leaders in the church and Jim was the organist and an elder, as well, but the pastor immediately wrote Jim a letter informing him that he was disfellowshiped and no longer welcome in the church., I have heard hundreds of similar stories. So I hope I've satisfied your curiosity about churches that don't welcome "penitent" gays. I'd consider it far more unusual to find a church that does welcome anyone if they are aware of their homosexuality.

.As for me attacking Scripture as inadequate in addressing this issue, there are many issues that aren't directly addressed in the Bible, such as euthanasia, cloning, stem-cell research, or, for example, living in large cities. There are many things that sincere Christians may disagree on.

I do think, however, that the Bible warns us against judging others

Carrol

I believe that Carrol’s experience of knowing “many gay and lesbian Christians who have not left God, who are chaste until they find a partner with whom they fall in love, and who then form a monogamous, faithful relationship” is a bit unusual. Most of the ones I know were previously in a heterosexual marriage, which they left in order to join their gay partner. (I don’t question that there may be some who were “chaste” until they met their gay partner. I just don’t know any, and I do know quite a few gay people. They also tell me that most “monogamous” relationships tend to become “open” after a few years, if not sooner.)

I also know a number of people who were once in a monogamous relationship. What impressed me is that several were drawn out of such a relationship by supernatural means. Others mutually chose celibacy in their relationship. (I can think of only two such couples at the moment – one couple of gay men and one lesbian couple.) They would agree with Wayne’s assessment of the practice of gay sex. So please don’t ascribe his convictions only to his previous promiscuity.

In his original testimony Wayne addressed the concept Carrol expresses with, “Nor did people at the time the Bible was written understand the concept of people being born with a homosexual orientation.” He demonstrated incredulity that the God of the universe could be unaware of a homosexual orientation.

To accept Carrol’s statement (reflective of SDAKinship philosophy) as meaningful, we must first accept that the Bible is a wholly human record of man seeking God – a statement fundamentally at odds with the foundations of Adventist theology. If, by contrast, the biblical writers were inspired by God, then the content of their writings reflect what God knows about humanity and society. And to postulate that the Creator God didn’t know about “being born with a  homosexual orientation” is absurd. So then we face the possibility of dealing with a very different God – one who has limited knowledge of the human condition. That may, after all, be the crux of our disagreement.

While I appreciate Carrol’s loving intent for same-sex-attracted individuals, her philosophy fails to take into account that God’s purpose for the human race is to bring humanity back into harmony with His character. The Apostle John stated clearly that the primary characteristic of God is love, and this love is defined in the Law of God – first as the two principles of love to man and love to God and later (at Sinai) as the ten principles of the decalogue. These principles were further elucidated in the civil laws given to Moses.

But the primary illustration of what it means to be in the image of God, in harmony with His character, is the life of the incarnate Son of God. In His own life and character, Jesus Christ demonstrated the meaning of the divine love which we are called to reflect. If we need any reminders of the kind of love Jesus demonstrated, we can find it in Paul’s writings in his letter to the Philippians, Chapter 2:

5 You must have the same attitude that Christ Jesus had.

 6 Though he was God,[a]

      he did not think of equality with God

      as something to cling to.

 7 Instead, he gave up his divine privileges[b];

      he took the humble position of a slave[c]

      and was born as a human being.

   When he appeared in human form,[d]

    8 he humbled himself in obedience to God

      and died a criminal’s death on a cross. (NLB)

Thus, Jesus Christ demonstrated the very life to which He called His disciples, when He said, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me. For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.” (Luke 9:23, 24)

Ellen White also put it succinctly when she wrote: "In the light from Calvary it will be seen that the law of self-renouncing love is the law of life for earth and heaven."  Desire of Ages, p. 20

This addresses the attitude of God not being so “demanding” or “unloving” as wanting same-sex-attracted individuals to abstain from the kind of sex that is “natural” for them. Self-renunciation is not “natural” to any of us, and maybe that’s why this basic teaching of Jesus is not very popular today. We live in a hedonistic society. Heterosexuals set the stage for today’s gay movement by setting the example of using sex as a recreational activity. (If that’s all it is, there is no valid argument against gay sex.)

This also addresses the confusion of love with sex, as Mervyn seems to have done with his beautiful quotes from Ellen White regarding love. The kind of love she was writing about was the “self-renouncing love” that is “the law of life for earth and heaven.” The kind of love she was writing about is in perfect harmony with all and every expression of God’s will, including his proscription of gay sex – however unnatural it may feel to same-sex-attracted individuals. Thus, if a gay person truly loves another gay person, s/he will refrain from engaging in forbidden sex with that person. It is only one of many sins that feel perfectly “natural” to us but are proscribed by the Creator who never forbids what is truly “good for us.” I can surely understand that it takes faith for a gay person to accept this. But then faith is the only way to experience the eternal life that begins here and now.

Wayne’s post under this subject line was directly addressing this topic of self-renunciation. He demonstrates that it goes much deeper than renouncing gay sex. However, the peace and joy that Jesus promises is the direct result of walking with Him in the path of self-renunciation. It can better be experienced than explained.

I believe we have strayed a very long way indeed from the teachings of Jesus  Christ when we try to use them to justify gay sex. We appear to be transforming Christ into our own image, rather than allowing Christ to transform us into His image. It takes a radical Christianity to follow the real Jesus Christ. For a moving presentation of what the real Jesus was like, in contrast to our custom-made Jesus, I recommend Blair Wingo’s presentation of “Allow me reintroduce the Christ” on Youtube. Treat yourself to this as a thought-provoking Sabbath devotion. J

"Open the doors of every church and invite every homosexual in." A wonderful suggestion. At what point, does anyone declare that a person, once invited, is "disinvited." Does the couple, once "invited" become no longer welcome if they divorce, and who, or what entity is designated to ferret out any "secret sins" of any members.

If a church chooses this route, there will be whole new church bureacracy necessary to handle these "sins," as who among us is without sin.  Much better to have a door wide open to acceptance for any and all who wish to enter, than have a patrol standing there to inspect each and every person's "sins."

Carrol,

In the Marriage and Homosexuality Conference thread you mentioned your son and his story, and most folks here know that it was your son’s homosexuality that started you on the path to the position of gay advocacy which you now occupy.

If I understand correctly from your book, your son “Danny” actually tried the route you now propose as the solution to a homosexual orientation. He spent three years in a committed gay relationship, including sex, and another six years in the same relationship in celibacy.

Perhaps you can share with us how he feels about the matter after his first-hand experience.

Inge Anderson

www.gladventist.org

P.S. You also mentioned that he and his wife were expecting a child any day. If I am not mistaken, that child must now have been born. I trust he and his wife are now the proud parents of a boy or girl and you are a proud grandmother. Perhaps you can share a little more?

Inga, I have no quarrel with you. You are one of the few people who make any meaningful contribution to this conversation. The material from Ould, his lexicographic studies is excellent. He has actually found extra Biblical sources which not only use but define words which have been the source of endless discussion. His work  should go a long way in ending those discussions. It won't. Most of the people advocating for gays don't really care about any objective data which sheds light on the Biblical perspective.

As for Kinship, it was started by Ben Pickell back in the seventies. He was the lover of an SDA pastor who was defrocked after his female fiancee exposed him. The pastor informed his intended of his sexuality. She went  to the conference office and he was rather unceremoniously "kicked to the curb." Ben started Kinship to provide a support network so other gays wouldn't have to go through what his friend did. Ben was blind, looked like Tom Selleck during his Magnum days, and lived in the desert, Desert Hot Springs, If I recall correctly.

There should still be some pastors who worked in Southeastern in those days who have near  first hand knowledge of the situation which spawned Kinship.

As for the inherent sinfulness of same sex attraction, what I mean is that Adam before the fall had not to struggle with this issue. I don't consider same sex attraction especially worse than heterosexual lust; there are, however, as Wayne pointed out, health issues r/t homosexuality that are less common among heterosexuals.

My own perspective on the gay community was formed primarily by my  experiences growing up near Hollywood and working over a period of several years with the gay community during the AIDS crisis of the nineties.

Based on my experience, I would say that Carrol's perspective is based on lies. I rarely ever saw anyone who lived as a chaste virgin and then faithfully entered into a monogamous relationship with a single lover. Nearly all the people in "monogamous" gay relationship reported open relationships which involved numerous sexual partners.

Few of the people I met had ever been married. Some were  in their early  twenties. They had been infected around the age of twelve, possibly younger, through homosexual rape.

It is possible that the type of gay who gravitated to W. Hollywood represented a certain subset of gay culture. Some of the younger men lived in decidedly upper class areas of Los Angeles. It may have been that their proximity to Hollywood exposed them to predatory types not found in other areas.

As mentioned above, ancient Israel struggled over this same issue. Cultic priests, apparently of the homosexual type, frolicked in the temple prior to one of its periodic cleansings.

2 Kings 23:7 specifically mentions male cult prostitutes who were driven from the land and the temple by Josiah. Possibly you have some lexicographical information on the kadasim mentoned in 2 Kings 23:7?

It is possible that the kadasim were men who served women participating in the rituals but it has been my understanding that these individuals were involved in homosexuality. I'd like to see, regarding the kadasim, some material like what Br. Ould has presented on the NT terms.

Mervin,

The greater question is not if God is capable of changing us, but what we let happen to our faith in God when He choses not to change us to the degree that we desire.  Some view it as cause to doubt the degree of God's interest in them.  I've been down that road and watched others lose their faith when mine seemed just as weak.  No, the struggles were not pleasant.  But I am thankful for them because they have taught me to depend on Him for His power to sustain my faith when my strength failed. So, like Paul, I praise God for the "thorn in my flesh" that keeps reminding me of my weakness and need to stay at the feet of Jesus. 

Inga,

Those who try to defend homosexuality as a "right" have exactly the same problem as those who condemn homosexuals: a failure to recognize and understand the true nature of sin.  In Romans and other places, Paul describes "sin" and "sins," the first being the polluted and defiled nature that is within us and which we are powerless to control and overcome outside the transforming power of God, the second being the natural deeds and desires caused by the first.  Discussions about sin and homosexuality too often focus on the results (sins) rather than the cause (sin).  Paul also makes it very clear that there is no real difference between us because all are sinners who have fallen short of the glory of God.  The typical result from focusing on the results of sin is trying to justify ourselves because our deeds are more socially acceptable than someone else's.  Thus we scorn homosexuals but forgive pride, deceit, envy and even adultery.  It is only when we fully embrace the Gospel and our sinful nature that we can begin to see others as equal in the eyes of God in spite of how we may feel about their particular failings.

In all the discussions about homosexuality, rarely, if ever, is lesbianism referred to.  There is no concern about AIDS or STDS, and women are known to be more monogamous than their male counterparts.

 Does anyone care to discuss the "harmfulness or sinfulness" of lesbian monogamous relationships.  Is it because of their more quiet monogamy, or that we have never questioned two females living together or sharing a home, than their male counterparts.

Psalm 19

⁷ The law of the LORD is perfect,
reviving the soul.
The statutes of the LORD are trustworthy,
making wise the simple.

⁸ The precepts of the LORD are right,
giving joy to the heart.
The commands of the LORD are radiant,
giving light to the eyes.

⁹ The fear of the LORD is pure,
enduring forever.
The ordinances of the LORD are sure
and altogether righteous.

¹⁰ They are more precious than gold,
than much pure gold;
they are sweeter than honey,
than honey from the comb.

¹¹ By them is your servant warned;
in keeping them there is great reward.

¹² Who can discern his errors?
Forgive my hidden faults.

¹³ Keep your servant also from willful sins;
may they not rule over me.
Then will I be blameless,
innocent of great transgression.

¹⁴ May the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart
be pleasing in your sight,
O LORD, my Rock and my Redeemer.

Someone suggested that all Adventist congregations are welcoming of "repentant homosexuals."

When I worked at the Adventist Media Center in Thousand Oaks (now in Simi Valley), the president of the media center stated in a meeting with all employees that he would not tolerate any homosexuals as employees of the media center. I interrupted him to ask if he didn't mean to say, he would not tolerate any "practicing homosexuals." "Surely," I said, "you don't mean to imply that mere orientation is sufficient grounds for barring a person from working here."

He responded that I was attempting to water down his meaning. He would not tolerate any homosexuals on the staff of the media center--no matter what their actual sexual practice. 

I ached inside as I looked around the room and saw in the crowd a number of homosexuals. I wondered how the president's speech affected their sense of welcome in the Adventist Church.

john thomas mclarty

Deleted

" much of what comes out of someone is caused by what or who influenced them."

Bingo!  And if it is their church, or society, and even family, how is that to ever be changed.  When those overt and sometimes subtle messages are well-known by the homosexual, we see the results in depression, suicidal thoughts, and the attempt to escape who they are.

A child growing up in such an environment, realizing he is so different from "normal" folks is subjected to more pain than any heterosexuals can understand.  Which is why we should never withhold our love, acceptance and willingness to embrace anyone that seeks our companionship and refuge.  We need not condone other's lifestyles or habits--none of us are perfect--but love can be a transforming and miraculous aid in helping to heal and make others "whole."  It is impossible to believe that Jesus would have been as condemning as some religionists are today.  Just as the well-known story of the woman caught in adultery, she was a victim of her circumstances just as all of us are trapped in the bodies which we inherited.  The more we learn about human fetal development, we can begin to realize the enormous capabilities of the fetus and brain development over which he has absolutely no control.  To blame or indict anyone for impossible circumstances, especially begun in utero, is to be bereft of psychological understanding and judge only by outward appearances, not the heart, as a famous man once said long ago.

Elaine,

  Thanks much for your last post which expresses my sentiments.

It is only as sinners (of any kind) experience the love of God that they can learn to trust Him enough to commit their lives to Him. Our mandate, as Christians, is to demonstrate the love of God to those who know Him not.

A focus on outward correctness of behavior often sabotages what God wants to accomplish. The Pharisees were good at that sort of thing, and they crucified the Lord of glory.

"More than thirty-seven years of living a promiscuous gay lifestyle lapsed before I would come to know that God doesn't see my orientation as a sin. How was it possible that the simplest of truths regarding God's love could be overlooked for one particular sin for so many years? "

What about more than thirty-seven years of living a life of an indulgent alcoholic before coming to know that God doesn't see one's involvement in alcoholism as a sin.?   It is futile to stop overindulgence in alcohol by continuing to drink excessively.  To finally realize that  the ONLY WAY OUT is by accepting one'spredisposition to alcoholism as an inherent trait and desire the world to embrace you  and accept  your habit as normal with TRUE CHRISTLIKELOVE  is self-deception of the most hideous kind.

The dilemma of homosexuality lies in equating accepting and endorsing a life style in direct contrary to Biblical injunction   to TRUE CHRISTLIKE LOVE. To do so actually condemns the VICTIM to a life of sin without hope.

Homosexuality is not a greater sin than any others, just stop making it a SACRED COW.

Philip

I believe your out of line.

Perhaps you need to re read waynes piece.

Why is it that so many seem to equate gay marriage simply with sexual activity? Is that what heterosexual marriage is all about? Of course not. Sex is only a small, though important part of the bonding, shared companionship, lifetime memories and learning to live with closely with someone who is different in many ways. This is what gay people who are Christians long for - they want their love to be dignified and affirmed in the same way that heterosexual couples' love is. To make a successful marriage requires support and affirmation of the community and the blessing of God. And while that may not be the way God created mankind originally, it is the way they are today. It is not a sin, though it may be one of the results of living in a fallen world. Just as God does not punish people who are unable to reproduce and "replenish the earth" (a specific command in Genesis) so I do not believe He punishes them for being born with a different sexual orientation.

And Inge, I think I pretty well covered Paul's situation in my previous post. Yes, he and Brandy are proud parents and we are proud grandparents. But we do continue to have concerns for the future of their marriage and the future of this precious baby, even as we pray daily for their success.

Carrol

Phillip can you tell me how old you were when you chose to be heterosexual? Did you receive condemnation and exclusion for your choice? Did churches tell you you were not welcome in their congregation because of your choice?

Probably not.  Just as heterosexuality was not a choice for you, homosexuality was not a choice for me. Although I have been treated my whole like it was. Now you may fornicate, be an adulterer and the like, may receive little, if any counsel by the church.  If I on the other hand have a sexual fall, I have already been warned that I will be severely counseled.  See anything wrong yet?  Sacred Cow? How do you figure that?  Have you had to struggle to be accepted by Jesus in the sight of your church members?  Have you been pointed at and talked about?  Have you been driven to suicidal thoughts because of not matching up to church standards?  Yes… this sin and those who have suffered from it and with it have been scorned and rarely loved into a church congregation.  You clearly have missed the meaning of the article.  I would suggest re reading it.  Pray to God to give you meaning and love for a fellow sinner. I’m guessing that if you let Him, God will reveal Himself to you and show you His love is for all sinners.

I am not striving to become heterosexual because it is “right”.  Heterosexuality is not the opposite of homosexuality. Holiness is the opposite of homosexuality. Striving and wanting to be like Christ. Allowing Him to fill me with right desires and right decisions. Again….to do His will, not my will.

Wayne Blakely 

The issues surrounding homosexuality are difficult  to address in the church, especially in  today's politically charged setting.  It is even more difficult for many to understand the thought processes that go through the mind of a  homosexual.

A person just doesn't wake up some morning and decide to be gay.  It's not something someone chooses  to turn  on and off like hot and cold water faucets.  Just ask anyone who has struggled  in this swamp like  I have.

The question must be asked, how can God condemn  someone who is attracted to the same sex who never chose to feel that way?  For years, dating back to early childhood, I felt I was  different from my peers.    This was back in the days  when  sex of any kind was never talked about in public and  a "gay old time "   was what you heard in the song  starting the Flintstone cartoons.

Today is quite a different story than 40 to 50 years ago.  Homosexuality  is on the  front burner of discussion list.  The church cannot pretend it  isn't there or hope  we can somehow  skirt around and avoid it.  The polarization touched off  in the church by any discussion  of homosexuality has been one of the most frustrating and gut wrenching  ordeals of my life to listen to.  

I hope I won't get shot down by what they call in the military "friendly fire" but   here's  my take on it all from a  been there done that,   was one, am one,   depending on  how you define homosexuality.  I never came "out" as is refered to  one who proclaims, "I'm gay."   No, I've been so  tightly hidden in a closet of self induced shame for so long, that it's amazing  I've survived it all.    The fear that nags at me is this, would people in the church still love me, respect and trust me, as they do now, if they knew, or would that all change and I be looked at suspiciously if I gave my testimony, even though I would still be the same person as I have been for over 25 years now,  a man who  repented of gay sex and has not  gone back to it, a man who God miraculously brought the one and only woman into my life that I  was genuinely attracted to, a woman I fell madly in  love with and asked to marry me 3 weeks later.

I am a very cautious, conservative person so for this to all happen so quickly  was all the more miraculous.   I thought I was "cured" of  my homosexuality.    The pastor who married us, the same one who rebaptised me 2 years before, the same pastor who  in my desperation and utter despair and despondency,  showed  a level of compassion for me when  I  told him my terrible secret 2 years before I finally  came back to God and the church,  insisted that I not hide my past from my bride to be.  Hesitantly I told her, and she was okay with it.  Again I thought  and told her before we got married that I was "cured" .

So what's the problem now, you might be thinking?   We are still married, I have fathered 3 children by her,  but  as time went on my same sex attraction seemed to  wax and  wane and no matter how hard I prayed to God to take it all away,  He never has.    Our marriage has  had it's fair share of problems, but it has usually centered around issues other than my same sex attraction.   We have always been transparent with each other, except for  my same sex attractions.  I feared telling her, that I hadn't been completely "cured",  as I had told her,  thinking she would leave me.   

There is a lot more, that I won't detail here, but  I finally mustered the  courage to tell her  early last year, because I just couldn't go on keeping it all a secret from her.  I could look her in the eye and honestly tell her I had been faithful all these years to her, that I loved her inspite of my  not always acting like it.   I didn't know how she would respond, but I spilled my guts to her.   

She started crying.  I had expected  the worst and braced myself for it wishing I could just die. Her biggest disappointment was that I held it in for so many years, fearing that I couldn't  trust our marriage enough to tell her.  You hear all these stories about  married gay men  whose  wives go ballistic  when they find out the truth about their husbands.   My story is just the opposite.  Perhaps  it's because  she knew  I wasn't practicing a double life with a boyfriend on the side.    Our  intimacy  had just about disappeared between us in recent years.  Our sex life had been zilch for years and I always blamed it on my medications.   Antidepressants do have a way of killing your libido.

The love and affection she showered on me in the aftermath of all this gave me renewed hope and determination.  She loved me when I couldn't love myself.    I decided that  I was going to get rid of this gay albatross that clung to me  inside no matter what.    I searched for a  professional therapist who was a christian who had  experience working with people with unwanted same sex attractions. In essence a change therapist.

I was being faithful to God and transparent to my wife, but  rather than  bounce back emotionally,  I sunk into a depressed state  of mind  that nearly killed me.  My wife  reassured me it was alright that I was being too hard on myself.  She was very concerned for me because  I have  heart trouble, and kind as she was and gentle as this therapist was  the gay inside me just wouldn't go away.  Wayne, your story is different than mine, but I certainly know what you mean when you say you couldn't pray the gay away.  The therapist  finally said  I needed to go to a pychiatrist who specialized in medications for  depression.   He really stressed that I not  tell   the psyc  anything  about the issues of homosexuality because  he would just try to convince me  I was born this way  and to come out of denial and quit trying to change.  

I was literally having a nervous breakdown over it all and couldn't even get out of bed.  My prayer life and devotion to both God and family was stronger than ever.  What was wrong?   I  didn't grow up in a disfunctional  home.  I  was never molested as a boy.  I felt  rejection from my father, but that wasn't till I was in my 20's when he remarried after my mother died.    I didn't fit the  typical profile of what  makes a person have same sex attractions.   I could only ask God "What's going on here?"

I need to  get this wrapped up here.  I didn't intend this to be a  personal testimonial, but it looks like it's turned into that.    There will be a lot of gaps here, but I did finally go to a  shrink.  Low and behold the only one  within 100 miles who was in the Blue Cross insurance network was a  Seventh Day Adventist.     I told him everything.    He  had me do some testing on a computer, asked questions I couldn't figure out  made any sense, I was interviewed by another  practitioner in his office, then back to  him. He told me I had obsessive-compulsive disorder.    He prescribed a medication that he said should show some results rather quickly.    He wanted to see me in a month and advised me in the meantime  to relax and let go  of  anything that  only adds to my frustration level.    Strangely, he said very little about my issues of homosexuality.  He gave me no indication  on that first visit, where he was coming from on  that. That was over a year ago.  Gradually, I started feeling better and thinking more clearly.    He has  steered me away from my fixation on  "what do I do to get over this."  

God leads in mysterious ways.   Romans 8:28 says, "All things work together for good to them that love the Lord, who are called according to His purpose."      Today I understand what that means in ways I never could before.  God doesn't cause  everything that  happens for good or bad in our lives, but he most certainly can  use  even our worst tragedies and disappointments in life  for our benefit, and even more to help us understand  what it's like to walk in someone elses shoes,  to better help them  see past the darkness and communicate God's love  for them.  

A thorn in the flesh has a way of humbling a person, if you will recognize it as such, and allow God to use you in ways he maybe couldn't were it not for that thorn.   

In trying to reach people for the kingdom of God we should  remember these words found in  Ministry of Healing page 143   "Christ's method alone will give true success in reaching the people.  The Savior mingled with men as one who desired their good.  He showed His sympathy for them, ministered to their needs, won their confidence.  Then he bade them follow Me."

In studying the Bible we should  always   use Proverbs 3:6 as  our personal guide, "Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and lean not unto your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge Him , and He shall direct your paths." 

 I'm somewhat skeptical that a gay man in his twenties could, or would, live as a celibate with his gay lover for six years. I believe that he might lie about it, however 

Really, it embarrasses me to see this poor fellow become a public figure so his Mother can deal with her own guilt.

Hansen, I'm sure Marcel is starting to feel like the guy in the parade who follows the elephants with a broom and a big, big dust pan. 

Are you just posting stuff to see how quickly he can delete it?  Really, you're being more than a little unkind, and if you were to direct comments like this toward Carrol while we were in the same room, I'd give you one warning, then ask you to leave. 

Since you find the conversation so "unbearably oppressive" why don't you just stop reading it?  You should stop snarkily dropping inappropriate comments, and you should certainly stop suggesting that suicide is the only outlet to cure what you view as his dysfunctional relationship with his mother. 

Tom

I am so happy for you and your wife. Its hard over the net but I want to express how supportive and glad I am that both you and Wayne have addressed the issues that life has thrown you by clinging to Jesus.

I pray that you each have a thousand angels to constatntly support and care for you.

Blessings.

Inge, I think you are sincere, well-meaning and sure that you are right., but you seem to have an unusual conception of what marriage is all about.  If, as you say, the only thing unique about marriage is sex, then it is very strange to turn around and say that having sex with someone to whom you are not attracted physically or with someone who is not attracted to you, makes a better marriage than most heterosexual marriages.

I would never wish ill for anyone, but I would be very surprised if the two married men you mentioned who had left their wives (or their wives left them) are not the last in your small band of heterosexually married men to do so. Why? Because of the hundreds of stories I have heard from gay men and women who tried desperately to make their marriages work. Most of them can make a go of it for ten or fifteen years before they crack under the strain. Some dear friends of mine stuck together for 33 years, but the end result was devastation and heartbreak. And also because of the 500,000+ members of the Straight Spouse Network here in America alone. I don't deny that there are a few who are able to have a fairly happy heterosexual relationship, and I pray fervently that Paul is one of them, but this is not the answer for most homosexuals. It takes a very special kind of partner who can be satisfied with a marriage to someone who is not physically attracted to them.  Here is a link to an article, which although written from a secular slant, gives a little glimpse of the magnitude of hurt experienced by straight spouses: http://www.sbsun.com/news/ci_13333095?source=email 

You suggest that a gay person can enjoy all the benefits of marriage, except sex, with a close friend. I would disagree with that, but even if this were true, it is a very rare heterosexual man who would be willing to form such a friendship with another man who is gay.

You are right about Paul. He is a wonderful person of strong character. But you have no idea of the background to all this, and I would prefer not to discuss his situation anymore.

Thank you

Carrol

Hansen, I'm not in need of your psychoanalysis. Frankly, it's none of your business.

I wrote our family's story to help other parents who were going through a similar situation. I have worked with well over 800 families and many more gays and lesbians, and have been told many times how much it helps to know someone who can understand. Paul not only encouraged me to write the book, but has encouraged me to share the update to his story.

Carrol

Carol

I continue to read your responses laced heavily with sympathy for the homosexual.  As I have addressed previously, would you please respond to these questions.

Where do you find God's advice for same-sex sex?

Where do you find God's direction for us to marry same sex?

Where do you find that God designed a penis to go in an anus or any other location for that matter?

Why do you insist on going against God?

Why do you find it necessary to accomodate man's will instead of God's will?

The bible says that the heart is deceitful and desparately wicked. Can you see in this how many will seek to pleasure themselves instead of commiting themselves to God and doing His pleasure? I see absolutely no calling or reference to self denial in your posts.

Of course there are thousands and thousands of men and women who are not happy in their heterosexual marriage. Perhaps they are not called to marry to begin with, but first be focused on dedicating their lives and their will to Jesus Christ.  I see no uplifting of Jesus Christ  and His plan for us in your posts or in your story.  I am sorry to have to be so straight forward, but it is incredibly self centered and selfish.  These stories and this advice in no way draws me to Jesus, only to what self wants. Completely the opposite of the plan and will of Jesus Christ.

I am praying that you will let him open your heart and let Him reveal Himself and His plan to you and all those who combat His love and plan of salvation.

Wayne Blakely

Inga wrote: 

"why else is marriage required for same-sex couples?"

This shows a deplorable lack of understanding of the many legal benefits of marriage:  Social security spousal benefits; income tax provisions; health insurance coverage:  rights that are only given to legally married partners.

Would you deny these benefits simply on the basis of their sex--and isn't that discrimination.  There are still states that deny same-sex benefits that only marriage can provide, and some deny adoption rights, also.  Why is any form of discrimination that prevents equal rights to benefits, especially financial, to a distinct group of people.

Why must any individual's disapproval of others' actions disallow them benefits we enjoy.  This will always be true in a democratic society.  We may disapprove of children born out of wedlock, but we should never penalize the child, unless we wish to return to the time of Hester Prynne.

Really Elaine,

Its just as discriminating to not allow brothers and sisters to marry for the same reasons.

It is weak arguements like these that muddy the waters in question.

"California already has the Domestic Partnership act, which gives most of the legal benefits of marriage, and the gay lobby is still pushing for same-sex marriage."

 If Domestic Partnership Act, does truly give "MOST" of the legal benefits, why are not heterosexual couples opting for that arrangement?

The corollary:  why, if these are almost equal, should there be such strong opposition to marriage for same-sex couples?  Who do they harm?  I have yet to hear of a single heterosexual married couple who has suffered egregious harm from the many homosexuals who now marry in several states, and in California for a short time.  Please give evidence that it has caused any harm to straights.  Otherwise, it is a repeated canard without evidence. 

What is the difference from objecting to one's religion (which includes his lifestyle) and one's choice of a marriage partner?  Why do we wish to meddle in other's people's private living arrangements?  Is this the Christian manner one wishes to be associated with?  What happens to the Adventist church's declaration of religious liberty if this is not associated with religious beliefs? 

 If the SDA church wishes to take an active opponent position on same-sex marriages, be prepared for the same arguments to be used against the church in the future.  Be careful what you wish for--it might come to pass in ways not expected.  Remember, SDAs are in the distinct minority in their religious practices and beliefs.  Allowing other people to have their personally-chosen beliefs and actions is the description of religious liberty, else why call it liberty?  How is this following the 14th amendment? 

Dare I stick my neck out and interject something in this gay marriage debate?  I'm reluctant to do so, but I'd really like to see this  wrestling match over the issue,  between  Carrol and Inga  particularly ,  cool down.     Carrol,  you seem to have quite a bit of  experience  in dealing with homosexuality because of your son.   You are to be commended for your ministry to gays.   I bought and read your first book that you wrote  under the psuedo  name Kate McLaughlin.     Several months ago I reread it.  There has been a lot of water  go over the dam since you first wrote that book, and your perspective  on the issue of homosexuality has obviously changed from when you first found out your youngest son, Danny, was gay.  I'm a little confused here.   From these posts going back forth between you and Inga,   the name Paul  has cropped up.   Somehow I got the idea that  you have a gay son named Paul who has married and is expecting  his first child.     Could you  clear this up for me?  Did you write a more recent book?  Would you care to comment on my  testimony  that I wrote on this post a few days ago?  I certainly don't want to hold myself up as the poster  boy   for  gay-straight marriage. But neither do I think  my story should be just ignored  as some kind of quirk that should   be  marginalized , in  your case histories  you   hold up to convince people who have same sex attraction that   it just doesn't work.

Inga, you are  equally as compassionate  in your efforts to help people who struggle with same sex attraction.  Both you ladies should be commended for taking on this  type of ministry, even though you  definately have some differences.   Please don't let your mutual desire to try and communicate to the church a need to  be more compassionate to people with same sex attraction,  be overshadowed by  your differences.

I stumbled across  Gladventist the first of this year and joined.    I wished I had found it 10 years ago.   It has helped me in  numerous ways that  I never dreamed possible when I first joined .  It has also given me  opportunities to share and try to encourage others with  same sex attraction.  It has also helped me come out of denial, self-hatred, and broaden my perspective, compassion and acceptance of gays.   For decades I dispised gay activists because their militancy reminded me of what I hated in myself.   Today I am ashamed of my insensitivity and hostility I  projected toward gays  for so many years.  I always felt that if  the gays who were  not so in-your-face  and pushy there wouldn't be such a backlash from the churches.    After  being on Gladventist and  studying all this a little more I believe it is more the reverse.   

I have finally accepted that some people like myself  have a homosexual orientation.   Years of endless pursuit, prayer,  I tried everything ,  didn't change that fact.   But  accepting myself for who I was, did not  release me  from my marriage vows to my wife so I could now go looking for "true love" with another man.  That's the real lie that Satan would have people like me believe. 

I can understand  now from reading the experiences of other gays  in the church, that the church"s  stigmitizing them, has  driven many  people  out of the church, away from God, and running into the  welcoming and affirming arms  of the gay community.  In an effort to purge all the baggage  they felt heaped on them, it can indeed be liberating  for many to just go for it all and not look back.

Today I have to ask myself, what can the church do to reverse all this ?  This conference at Andrews University presents a  golden opportunity  to  appeal to the church to take a compassionate  approach to  people who  struggle with same sex attraction.  You and Inga  are on the same page with regard to  compassionate ministry to gays, and the need for the church to  reach out to them.   Why not  work together  toward a mutual goal where there is common ground , instead of this  warring over where there is disagreement between you?   This opportunity is going to just blow up in our faces and  get nowhere if  it breaks down  into a skirmish between people who are basically on the same side when it comes to the church   not giving gays  the feeling they are   not welcome.

Over reach can be counter productive and make things actually worse for gays in regards to the church.   I can see the printing presses going full speed  already  by the  self-annointed  ministries whose main purpose seems  to be  "cry aloud and spare not".    It's probably  going to happen anyway,  but why give them fuel to make a bigger fire?

Hansen,

Asking if there are any SDA churches that welcome penitent homosexuals means both those churches and the person asking the question are utterly failing to practice the redeeming love that God has showered on us. It allows the "holier than thou" crowd, who measure their closeness to God by not having to battle such offensive sins as homosexuality, to insulate themselves from the reality that all sin is equally deadly and having to come to a real understanding of what it means to be redeemed.  We should never ask if a person has overcome to the point where their sin no longer offends us.  Instead we should be inviting them to become part of the welcoming fellowship of Christ in which we each discover His power to live and overcome.  

wfnoel

Your point is well taken.  The only way any of those who are now unrepentant  may be brought to repentence is to know that God loves them unconditionally, inspite of what they are and do.   That doesn't mean the church should approve of sinful behavior. But  it is only in an atmosphere of  the kind of winsome love Jesus  emulated, can  a desire  for something better in life than sin be awakened in the heart of the yet unrepentant.

 Consider this: was the prostitute  in John 8, who was brought before Jesus in shameful near nakedness repentant   at the time  her accusers were asking Jesus permission to stone her?   Her most likely thought a bout then was probably fear for her life, not repentance.

 But the plot of the story thickens when Jesus says," neither do I condemn you."  And then he said "go and sin no more", not " you can go back to work now.."

His unconditional love for her, awaken in her sin-sick soul  a desire to know more about  Jesus.    Jesus  said that he who is forgiven much, loves much. 

So many in the church  are fearful of what they call cheap grace.  But a true understanding of God's grace  can never lead to it being considered cheap.  It cost Jesus His life to offer eternal life to anyone who would believe on Him.   That belief is far more than just some intellectual recognition .  It is a faith that reaches beyond forgiveness, and  embraces the empowering  aspect of God's grace that enables us to  grow into His likeness.

We were and are all dead in sin, save for the sacrifice of Jesus for our salvation.  Jesus calls us to be fishers of men.  Our part is to catch them. He'll clean them.

As a result of this article, the pastoral staff of the church I attend were directed to read it. None take issue with it, as it is as conservative and Christ centered as any Adventist could ask for. In the wake of contemplating those who wrestle with same-sex attraction, the church fails to recognize the need to address this issue openly. 

What is being watched is me. I am told by nearly every pastoral staff member, that it is important to see if I "fall". My pastor believes my testimony may be effective, should God call me to give it within one to ten years of my recommittment to Christ.  I suggest that this would not be the case of another church member with a different history of sin.

God's tremendous awakening in me and my relationship with Him, seems to be limited by God's own people. Revelation says; "They overcome him by the blood of the Lamb and the world of their testimony"

A remark some time ago by my pastor was; "I'm not sticking my head in the sand." as a result of my encouraging him to acknowledge the need to breach this topic in God's family. However, it appears that that is exactly what is taking place. I have been told by a pastoral staff member, that I will not be asked to share my story, because if I fall, church members would come to the pastor and his staff and say "I told you so." 

What I see in that is; rather than uplift Jesus and what He has done for you and is possible for others in the church or those whom they are praying for, we would rather save face and not trust that God is seeing you through each and every day. We are not willing to take time to help keep you close to Him. We can only watch and wait for you to fall, and if at some point in time ....waaaaay down the road, if it appears that you haven't fallen to us, we just might find it important for you to share your victory in Jesus Christ.

I was also informed that I am being watched and monitored much like that of a pedophile. But that they wanted to know what they should be looking for as signs that I am about to fall or disturb another church member with my sin.

As a result of the article, some of read it, but none appear to be following the comments and recognizing the significance of the nee to hold out the Bible and the cross of Jesus to those who hurt, but burn with a desire to know Him better.

I am certain that God knows sadness for His church and those who don't try to understand. And God waits on His people.

Wayne Blakely

mrwayyne@comcast.net

What an interesting reading this blog is! I commend you for your hunger and thirst for God, for your vulnerability in speaking out. Straight or gay, the Christian life involves struggle and peace, suffering and joy. We live in a tension until Jesus comes. I bless you on your journey and your commitment to knowing Jesus.

Wayne,

Thank you for sharing your life experience story!  WOW! 

 You are absolutely correct in that the Lord God LOVES YOU UNCONDITIONALLY!   Jesus would never have held or even touched a sign that said "God HATES Fags".  He does not hate. He states " Love One Another As I Have Loved You"   Who are we to judge others? We are all sinners in one way or another, you are no different from anyone else in that.  The fact that you fight temptation everyday is exactly what Jesus ask all of to do and I admire you for that forthcoming!  May God continue to bless you and spread his WORD!

Just a note to thank you Wayne for this article and your additional comments.  This was a real blessing to me and very eye opening.  I have always wondered if I would react in the right way if faced with a friend or a brother or sister in Christ who was struggling with this issue.  Reading your thoughts and experience goes along way in helping me with that.  I long to be sensitive, understanding and compassionate as our Lovely Jesus is.

Be of good courage!!  Looking forward to going Home someday when all our struggles will be over.

 Sending you tons of His Love, and praying for blessings and joy in your life

jb2