Prophecy of Revelation states that the whole world will wonder after the beast.  Obviously, it will seem that the beast is worthy of adoration and worship.  Therefore, just because it looks like Catholic Church has changed it may not be so.  For me, personally, Catholic Church has revealed its true face with abuse scandals.  Number of priests involved in abuse and molestation is staggering (these were not isolated cases, but more or less practice), the way the Church officials were trying to cover it up is shameful, and stories from victims are horrifying.  One little “sorry” years later, from pope who is trying to convince us that Catholics are all for social justice, poor and deprived in this world means almost nothing.  If there were any justice in this world hundreds of nuns (in Ireland), priests and bishops would be in prison.  If Catholic Church could do this to its own flock, than what can others expect?  

By all means, let's get over our fixation on the Catholic Church; hey, the inquisition has been disbanded for over 150 years.  It's time to let go of the trauma.  But really, as Ervin has pointed out so frequently, the more urgent tasks for the progressive Adventist are to jettison Ellen White, or at least consign her memory to benign neglect, and to get away from a fundamentalist reading of Scripture. 

Once people have agreed to ignore Ellen White, the next goal will be to make people understand that the prophetic books of Daniel and Revelation are not gospel books, are not relevant to our lives, and are not to be understood by lay Christians anyway.  Daniel may have had meaning to the Hebrews in Babylon, and Revelation may have had coded messages for the early Christians in the Roman Empire, but there's no point torturing those documents to try to apply them to contemporary times.  Once the unfortunate interest in prophecy has subsided, the old prejudice against Catholics will fade away. 

Fortunately, we have a blueprint for this task in the history of much of American protestantism.  Take for example, the Disciples of Christ.  Old Alexander Campbell sounded alot like Ellen White, but today you'll not hear a Disciples of Christ pastor mention Revelation, except to warn his parishioners not to read it.  If we will study the transformation of the Christian Church/Disciples of Christ, we will have a roadmap for how to get where we need to go.

brendap, as I said in the piece, Roman Catholics still merit our scrutiny, but so do many other movements. I'm suggesting that we broaden our view in trying to spot threats to liberty. 

Like you, I find the pedophile priest scandals of the RC church very troubling. I hold back, though, from using that as evidence against the entire denomination, for one simple reason: being an insider, I know how much that is similar has gone on in our denomination. The scale is different only because our church is so much smaller than the RC church, by a factor of 60. Sin has no denominational boundaries.

Loren 

Has the Catholic Church really changed that radically? Pope Benedict XVI doesn't think so. And he's pretty influential. I think lots of liberal Protestants make the mistake of listening to liberal Catholics, like Richard McBrien, or reading publications like NCR, and imagining that's the Catholic mainstream; imagining that Vatican 2 was about discontinutiy.

But Vatican 2 changed no doctrines. It defined no dogma. It was all about pastoral application. Some liberals liked to speak of the "spirit of Vatican 2," thinking that this "spirit" would lead to fundamental change of structure or doctrine. But it didn't. 

Benedict, back when he was simply Joseph Ratzinger, spoke of a "hermeneutic of continuity." This hermeneutic says that we must understand Vatican 2 in continuity with what went before, not as a break.

This was the point of the 1985 Extraordinary Synod--to see Vatican 2 in continuity. To reground the post-Vatican 2 church in the letter of Vatican 2, and not some presumed "spirit."

Read the documents. They quote from Trent. They affirm what went before. They call for no radical breaks.

I'd suggest rereading an Adventist evaluation of the council: Beach's "Vatican 2: Briding the Abyss." It's very perceptive, even reading it after 40+ years.

Let me draw attention to a few examples of doctrines that have not changed.

Justification by Faith. Despite the much-ballyhooed "Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification," Catholic teaching hasn't changed. It still sees that works contribute to ongoing justification. It still sees that we must make satisfaction for forgiven sins through penance. It still says that temporal punishment that is not satisfied in life is reserved to purgatory.

Clericalism. The Catholic church still teaches that there is an ontological difference between the ordained and the lay; that the ordained have an "indelible character." That the ordained rule the church and the laity can only advise. This is what led to the sexual abuse crisis--not merely the sins of individuals but the "structures of sin" that led priests and bishops to protect one another and use and abuse the laity and stifle those who protested.

Religious liberty. Yes, the Catholic church speaks of religious liberty--but it rejects separation of church and state. This is a critical distinction. See, for example, a 2008 lecture of Cardinal J. Francis Stafford.The Catholic Church sees that its role is to be the conscience of society; thus it seeks to twist the arms of Catholics in the legislature; that is why the USCCB is a major lobbying organization, as well as the Catholic Conferences in each state. The bishops assume they have insights into the economy, labor, health care, immigration, that the state must follow.

Sacramentalism. Nothing has changed there. Transubstatiation, worship of the Eucharist, the mass as a sacrifice that is offered for the living and the dead. No change of any kind.

Mary and the saints. No changes here. Still they are seen to intercede. Still they are said to have merits that can be applied to us (indulgences). Still Mary is said to have been immaculately conceived, assumed into heaven--and some are pushing for Rome to dogmatize the teaching that Mary is mediatrix of all graces.

Ellen White did not create the Adventist perspective of Roman Catholicsm--she inherited it from the Protestant Reformers. The Reformers saw a great gulf between the teachings of Scripture and the teachings of Catholicism. Read the Augsburg Confession. Read the Smalcald Articles. There was certainty that Rome is in error on the Gospel and Bible teachings. Rome hasn't changed--but Protestants have.

And so this statement from the little old lady from Gorham, Maine, seems still to be relevant:

"Romanism is now regarded by Protestants with far greater favor than in former years. In those countries where Catholicism is not in the ascendancy, and the papists are taking a conciliatory course in order to gain influence, there is an increasing indifference concerning the doctrines that separate the reformed churches from the papal hierarchy; the opinion is gaining ground that, after all, we do not differ so widely upon vital points as has been supposed, and that a little concession on our part will bring us into a better understanding with Rome. ...

"The defenders of the papacy declare that the church has been maligned, and the Protestant world are inclined to accept the statement. Many urge that it is unjust to judge the church of today by the abominations and absurdities that marked her reign during the centuries of ignorance and darkness. They excuse her horrible cruelty as the result of the barbarism of the times and plead that the influence of modern civilization has changed her sentiments.

"Have these persons forgotten the claim of infallibility put forth for eight hundred years by this haughty power? So far from being relinquished, this claim was affirmed in the nineteenth century with greater positiveness than ever before. As Rome asserts that the 'church never erred; nor will it, according to the Scriptures, ever err', how can she renounce the principles which governed her course in past ages? ...

"It is true that there are real Christians in the Roman Catholic communion. Thousands in that church are serving God according to the best light they have. ...

"But Romanism as a system is no more in harmony with the gospel of Christ now than at any former period in her history. The Protestant churches are in great darkness, or they would discern the signs of the times."

I left Adventism and, after some time, entered the Catholic church because I believed McBrien's "Catholicism" and NCR represented genuine Catholicism. I didn't think there were many differences remaining. I thought the JDDJ did change things. I worked for the Catholic church in lay ministry in NY, CA, and TX. I was head of a chancery department for a major archdiocese for 9 years. And my experience taught me the truth of what Ellen White says in these passages. And I came home.

Pastor Seibold,

I would like to make a distinction between the Catholic system and the people who are a part of the system. God has His people in all denominations who have not yet been called out.

Yes, our church does believe the beast of Revelation 13 is symbolic of the Catholic church (a view that was not unique to Seventh-day Adventist); so are you suggesting that based on your seven points that we should re-evalutate our interpretation of Revelation 13 and the other prophecies of Daniel that we associate with the church?

The seven points you have put forth cause you to think that the Catholic church is not the organization talked about in those prophecies. Do you think we have interpreted those prophecies incorrectly? 

Shane, I would be reluctant to say that we've not interpreted the prophecies correctly. But a lot of time has passed and, like with Israel, a lot has changed. I believe we need to broaden our view as to who our enemies are.

Loren 

Bill,

Loren is overstating the matter when he suggests that Vatican II "radically altered the denomination's doctrines"; but he is right to note that the claims made in the very paragraphs of the Great Controversy you cite are outdated and inaccurate.Are you really prepared to join Ellen White, and claim the Catholic Church is incapabale of "renouncing. . . her course in past ages?"...

NOW that Pope Paul VI and the council fathers proclaimed that "the human person has a right to religious freedom" (Dignitatis Humanae 2), and asserted that past instances of Christians persecuting others were "hardly in accord with the spirit of the Gospel or even opposed to it" (12)?

NOW that Pope John Paul II called the entire church to repent of past examples of "intolerance and even the use of violence in the service of truth" (Tertio Millenio Adviente 35)?

NOW that John Paul II and (then) Joseph Card. Ratzinger (now Pope Benedict XVI) led the Church in a "Day of Pardon" mass on 12 March 2000 to repent of all past instances of Christian "intolerance" and "violence," including recourse to "methods incompatible with the gospel"?

NOW that the Catechism of the Catholic Church reaffirms that torture is not "in conformity with the legitimate rights of the human person," and regrets that Church leaders formerly allowed its use in their own tribunals (2298)?

NOW that Veritatis Spledor calls torture an "intrisic evil," which can never be justified (80-81)?

Really?

Pastor Seibold,

Admittedly, your position now seems unclear to me. Perhaps you can elaborate more on your main point. You said you're reluctant to say we've interpreted the prophecies incorrectly, but yet you said in your article you have seven reasons why it may be time to question them in that role.

So are you thinking we need to expand our interpretation to include another power?

It sounds conflicting to say we're not wrong, but here's why I think we might be.

Shane Hilde 

Shane, sorry if I wasn't clear. I'm simply saying that what was true at one time may not be true after a considerable amount of time has passed, and many changes have introduced new factors. As I said, I don't know why God has delayed Jesus' return, but when there is a delay of time, prophecies' applicability changes. We've often noted this with Israel: not all the prophecies about them came true, because of several factors including a long pattern of non-cooperation on their part, and so Jesus fulfilled the prophecies, but in quite a different way, where Israel was no longer at the center as they were in the OT; and in fact the gospel never even really took root among the Jews, so that the church today is mostly non-Jews—not the original plan, if I read the OT right. I'm suggesting that 150 plus years after the great disappointment, the principle is still very good, of looking for and targeting movements that will deprive us of liberty before it is God's time for that to happen; but we may not be able to apply that principle just by targeting one particular organization that was identified in prophecies over a century old. To give just one example: it seems to me Moslem extremists are doing precisely some of the things that The Great Controversy says about Roman Catholics, such as trampling on the conscience, depriving people of liberty, working through governments to do these things, persecution, etc. They deserve our to be targeted by the prophecies, too.

Loren 

Loren 

Hugo,

When the mea culpa of the Jubilee year was being discussed, theological commissions had to meet long in advance to discuss how to word it. A distinction was made between the church, and members in the church ... as if these members went and did things that were not really in keeping with the church itself.

But the murder of John Huss was decreed by the highest level of church authority, an Ecumenical Council.

And Leo X's Exsurge Domine rejected Luther's teaching that "it is against the will of the Holy Spirit to burn heretics." Exsurge Domine is cited as authority by the Catechism of the Catholic Church for its teaching on indulgences.

So let's see an explicit rejection of the Council of Constance's murder of Hus (for daring to say the laity should drink from the cup!).

Let's see a repudiation of Exsurge Domine.

But we won't see that. Because the Church still teaches that the Church is infallible, and its magisterial pronouncements, even if the individual members of the church sin. The sins of the members (whether they be murder, torture, or sodomy) cannot call into question the holiness of the Catholic Church, in Catholic teaching.

I think it's safe to say that fundamentally the Catholic church has not changed much except that is does not have the civil power it once had.

Granted there have been conditional prophecies in the past, but the condition was based upon repentance and transformation.

Biblically speaking the power that arises out of the ten horns is most definitely the beast power of Revelation 13. I think the biblical evidence for this interpretation is very strong. It only follows then that this is a prediction of what that same power will do in the future.

The church's apologies aren't indicative yet of any significant change in the church. I think this will only be revealed once their power has been fully restored.

Revelation 13 is a prophecy for the time of the end. I don't see any biblical grounds for thinking it is conditional. Babylon is not being called to repentence, the people in Babylon are being called out of her because she is corrupt. So we either got it right, or we got it wrong. Is it reasonable to believe based on the Bible and what we know of history that any other power besides the Catholic church is the power spoken of in Daniel and Revelation? I don't think so.

I don't believe this is about targeting people. We're trying to understand what God has told us through these prophecies.

Many people may be converted and come out of the Catholic church, but the system itself, its government, will not undergo any significant changes from when it was last in power.

Do you have any reason from scripture why the identity of the beast in Revelation 13 would be different than how we interpret it currently?

In regard to why Jesus did not return during Ellen Whites time, I think it was revealed to Ellen White why. I could be wrong, but I thought I had read her explanation. I'll have to do some research on that.

Have you studied this to find out why Christ did not return? I think there is an answer. God has given us so many signs of his soon return, it would be contradictory of his character not to let us know why he didn't return when we thought.

Also, we should also note that had Christ returned then it is very probable the prophecies in Revelation 13 would have had their fulfillment then.

I don't see Revelation 13 fitting the profile of say Jonah's prophecy to the people of Nineveh. The condition was repentance, as it was with Israel. I don't see that being a factor in Revelation 13.

What I hear you saying is that this prophecy was true a hundred years ago, but that we could be wrong about it now. And the seven reasons you provided are the reason why you think we have it wrong. Is that right?

Shane Hilde

I make no pretensions about explaining or identifying all the strange beasts in Revelation.  But the importance, IMHO, is the meaning it had for the early church:  there would be persecutions but  God would eventually triumph.

The Roman emperors were engaged in horrible persecutions of Christians and they were given hope that although their lives might not be spared, God would win. It follows Jewish apocalyptic prophecies (Ekekiel and Daniel) in allegorizing individuals instead of naming them, which was their code for hiding identities. 

Their hopes were planted on restoring the temple and Jerusalem.  The emperors:  Tiberius, Caligula, Claudius and Nero were all murderous tyrants.  According to Tacitus, Nero was one of the worst (54-68 A.D.) who blamed Christians for the fire that destroyed Rome and they were horribly tortured before dying.  Tertullian (ca. 255-230) was the first to call Nero the first persecutor of Christians, so the Christians were very aware of the dangers of worshiping for their faith.

The Hebrew numbers (666) add up to spell Nero's name and Preterist eschatology identifies Nero as the Antichrist.  Since its writing, John's Revelation has had many interpretations, and the only assurance that can be gained is that Christ will triumph in the end.  All others are speculative, and greatly depend on the century it is being interpreted, as it has changed over time, according to the contemporary troubles.

The reason the Lord has NOT returned can be directly related to the SDA church itself!  We have not embraced our SOLE mission(3 Angels Message).  The Lord cannot come back until His people allow Him to finish the mystery of "God in us" (Rev. 10:7).  It is the final vindication.  The heart of the 3 Angels Message.

It is not God that "gave us time to be a world church" but rather it is us that took it and did what WE wanted rather than the mission we were brought up to do.  I strongly think that it is articles like this that slow down the coming of the Lord, and open the door to confusion!   This article is already causing damage by certain people  that  the SDA church is trying to change its image. 

Just as either we accept Jesus as the son of God or don't!  There is no in between because He claimed to be just that:  The Son of God.  Likewise EGW is either a prophet of God or she is not!  She specifically said not one part of her writings are her opinion!  WE CAN NOT PICK AND CHOOSE!  Besides the prophecies stand firm without her writings!  They were not conditional prophecies.  I quite frankly find this article to be Sophistry. 

Sophism: a deliberately invalid argument displaying ingenuity in reasoning in the hope of deceiving someone

The "mark" of the beast in NT times was the imperial seal of Rome. Papyri with the seal affixed were found during excavations in Egypt. An actual seal was found, the instrument for affixing the imprint to documents. Deissmann discusses the instrument as well as the documents bearing the seal at some length in Bible Studies:   

http://faculty.gordon.edu/hu/bi/Ted_Hildebrandt/New_Testament_Greek/Text/Deissmann-BibleStudies.pdf

"Now the Papyri put us in a position where we can do justice to this possibility. They inform us of a mark which was commonly used in imperial times, which

(1) Is connected with the Roman Emperor,

(2) Contains his name (possibly also his effigy) and the year of his reign,

(4) Was technically known as caragma."

.

Bill,

You are also ignoring the fact that "the Church" subsists in the visible Catholic Church, but is not limited to her. All the true children of God, within or without the limits of the Catholic Church as a visible body, are members of "the Church," "in the bosom of the Church." Now as you and I both know, the Church includes many Protestants. Are they also responsible for the persecution of Protestants by Catholics? No. "The Church" in all her fullness embraces people who are innocent, and even opposed, to the crimes committed in past centuries; the Church's ultimate identity is not limited to the leadership of the Roman church and the historical sins they commit. "The Church" in Catholic theology is a more abstract concept. For this reason, there is a need to distinguish "the Church" from the actions of individual groups of Christians.

>>>When the mea culpa of the Jubilee year was being discussed, theological commissions had to meet long in advance to discuss how to word it. A distinction was made between the church, and members in the church ... as if these members went and did things that were not really in keeping with the church itself.

And again, this is true. You and I would both agree that persecution is not in keeping with the principles upon which Christ birthed "Church" in its ultimate sense, even if members and institutions of "the Church" (Catholic and Protestant) countenanced and called for the same. This is precisely what Dignitatis Humanae asserted; persecution is out of keeping with the gospel and divine revelation.Now, you are hardly doing the teaching of the ITC any justice. You suggest Catholics see "the Church"'s holiness as absolute. On the contrary, the same theological commission expressly wrote: "The Church on earth is “marked with a true holiness,” which is, however, “imperfect.”(50) Augustine observes against the Pelagians: “The Church as a whole says: Forgive us our trespasses! Therefore she has blemishes and wrinkles. But by means of confession the wrinkles are smoothed away and the blemishes washed clean. The Church stands in prayer in order to be purified by confession and, as long as men live on earth it will be so.”(51) And Thomas Aquinas makes clear that the fullness of holiness belongs to eschatological time; in the meantime, the Church still on pilgrimage should not deceive herself by saying that she is without sin: “To be a glorious Church, with neither spot nor wrinkle, is the ultimate end to which we are brought by the Passion of Christ. Hence, this will be the case only in the heavenly homeland, not here on the way of pilgrimage, where ‘if we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves’...”(52) (Memory and Reconciliation, 3.3)."

>>>But we won't see that. Because the Church still teaches that the Church is infallible, and its magisterial pronouncements, even if the individual members of the church sin. The sins of the members (whether they be murder, torture, or sodomy) cannot call into question the holiness of the Catholic Church, in Catholic teaching.  

I think the paragraph I cited above amply addresses your misconceptions. The Church is holy; after all, "Christ loved the church and handed himself over for her to sanctify her, cleansing her by the bath of water with the word" (Eph. 5:25). However, that holiness is imperfect precisely because "due to the presence of sin there is a need for continual renewal and for constant conversion" (Memory and Reconciliation 3.3).

You paragraph is quite problematic however. You and I both know "infallibility' only extends to questions of faith and morals, not historical actions (sins of the members). You and I also know that infallibility cannot be predicated of every teaching or decree of the magisterium (CDF, Doctrinal Commentary on the Professio Fidei 10).

>>>>But the murder of John Huss was decreed by the highest level of church authority, an Ecumenical Council. So let's see an explicit rejection of the Council of Constance's murder of Hus (for daring to say the laity should drink from the cup!).

And this is exactly what was done: "Today, on the eve of the Great Jubilee, I feel the need to express deep regret for the cruel death inflicted on John Hus. . . " (John Paul II, 17 December 1999)

I am out of space. We can talk about Exsurge Domine another time.

I hate to see us talk about our "enemies." It sounds so paranoid. True, we need to be aware that the forces of evil are active in the world, but when we single out certain groups as enemies, I believe it affects our attitude toward the people in those groups.

When Jesus prayed that His followers would be "one," as He and His Father were one, I don't think He was just talking about unity among Adventists! I think He meant ALL of his followers. I believe we need to look for all the ways we can agree with others, rather than emphasizing how we differ.

As for Catholics, I have come to have a much different understanding since my son, who is gay, became a Catholic. He is very devout and dedicated and I have no doubt that God can save him as a Catholic.

Finally, speaking of those who would make decisions of conscience for others, I think we have recently seen that in our own church - in those so-called religious liberty leaders who urge us to force our moral convictions about homosexuality on everyone.

Carrol

 For what it's worth, I would very much like to associate myself with Shane Hilde's comments and questions on this article, topic and discussion. I can understand the concept of progressive revelation, but I have trouble with that of a conditional prophecy...unless, of course, the conditions are stated up front. Is there any evidence of stated, or alluded to, conditions in Revelation?

People can be very naive sometimes when they put forth that something God has written no longer applies. This article is basically trying to argue that, due to circumstances, what God wrote about the "Beast" no longer applies to the Catholic church. Without saying it directly, it's trying to say that God was wrong. Loren's reply to Shane, saying that he's reluctant to say that we've not interpreted the prophecies correctly, but that a lot of time has passed, is basically admitting to that.

Time changes, but God does not. In our limited view of the big picture, we sometimes think we see things as they are, but there is a lot more going on, and God sees the whole picture.

Put it this way - either God was right or He was wrong! Yes, some prophecies have secondary applications, and sometimes they even have personal applications. But all prophecies have their primary application, and the Beast power fits no other entity other than the Roman Catholic system. None other. We can look at the Roman Catholic church today and think we see a different church. But God identified the characteristics of the Beast and He gave no indication that the title would move to another entity. There is nothing to indicate that another power would assume that identification. Also, the Beast will continue right to the end of time. So, we can only say that the Catholic system is the Beast and wait and see what happens next. Let's not run around accusing everyone of being Jesuit double-agents, and trying to fit every piece of news into the prophetic scheme, but just wait and see and look on as prophecy continues to unfold.

I'll just mention here some of the views propagated by some Adventists today that 666 doesn't apply to the Papacy and that the Adventist church was wrong. Not, we were not wrong. That idea does not hold water when you study it in-depth. It doesn't take much to refute this idea. There might be no Papal tiara with Vicarius Filii Dei written on it, but it's not necessary to have one either. This is not the place for a full study of this issue, so I need not write more. However, it's another example of trying to make Adventist teaching more palatable and less offensive, when God's word clearly says otherwise.

It means little say that "Revelation 13 is a prophecy for the time of the end"

All the NT writers, and those who recorded Jesus' saying were convinced that the "time of the end" was very soon, and they expected it momentarily.

Now that 2,000 years have past, every generation has seen themselves in the "time of the end."  Which means that 2,000 years from  now, people may still be certain that they are living in "the time of the end."

Truly, for all of us, we could die the next moment, and those of us who are older know that our end of time is very soon.  When we all die, it will be for us "the time of the end."

I am curious to know what any of you may know of Vatican II?  Have you read it?  And as a Roman Catholic, I am begging you to please do NOT let me off the hook...I like being on the hook.  If you let me off the hook, I turn into you, a heretic.  A true "protestant" is supposed to be "anti-Catholic".  However, Jehovah Whitness member's and SDA member's seem to have turned it into an industry.  One very important thing everyone whom claims to be protestant must remember is that the Holy Bible is not a protestant book, it's a Catholic one.  So when you quote from it, keep that in mind.

 Thank-you so much,

 Ignatio

It was the Roman Empire that was the first persecutor of Christians, and like much of history, those persecuted learn the "tricks" and when in power they also become persecutors.  This is an old and repetitious act that continuously is seen.

When the only Christian history that many Adventists learn is from GC, it becomes awfully distorted.  Unlike it is presented therein, by the end of the first century, the Jerusalem, or Jewish Christians fade from view and the Pauline church, which was Gentile is the only one recorded in history after the fall of the temple.

Also, there were far more Jews in the Diaspora than in Jerusalem:  a ratio of six to one, as reported by sociologist Rodney Stark has shown.  The largest contingent was in Alexandria, and there were many Christians there with no historical account of who was the evangelist bringing Christianity to the Egyptians.  The Jews there were more readily converted to Christianity as in the past centuries they had discovered that it was most difficult to live by the Torah when they were surrounded by Gentiles, and they were far removed from the ghetto environment of Palestine. 

As the G.C. depicted sabbath observers throughout the centuries holding fast to the original teachings, there is very sparse evidence for this assumption.  Even so, they would not have been following Christian, but Jewish teachings if the main difference was sabbath. 

To cite the Roman Catholics as  main perpetrators then and now of Christians is to refuse to see that the original church was the Roman one and they were the first Christians persecuted.  Also,  we should remember there would be no New Testament nor Christian history had not the first church preserved it.

The biblical reason, I think, of why the Lord has not come yet can be found in Mathew 24:14. I think there are places in this world where the good news of the gospel has not been reached yet. The same was the case in the first century. Also, a partial explantion for the "apparent delay" can be found in 2 Pet. 3:9 (1 day=1000 years). In short, God's timing is not our timing!! The notion of time for God is different from ours. 

I agree Pastor Loren

I think it is unwise to have our heads so far in the future, locked in on one interpretation of prophecy like we do, that we miss the forest through the trees when it comes to religious liberty and the principles of Revelation 13.

In the last 30 years alone, Islamic fundamentalism and extremism has done much, much more for persecuting Christians, oppressing the people, taking away human rights and using religon as a terrorist tool then Roman Catholicism in the entire 20th and 21st centuries.

Dr. Samuele Bacchiocchi stated that if you really want to get 'literal' with the prophecies, Daniel 7 could easily apply to Islam as much as to Catholicism in the symbols Daniel provided. His argument was that we should view the 'little horn' as a multi-faceted anti-Christ power that manifests itself in different groups at different times in history. When one looks closely at both Daniel 8 and 9, it is obvious that this cannot be the same 'little horn' in both chapters. Islamic extremism could very well be classified under this branch of 'persecuting powers'. He also rightly and logically pointed out that our traditional interpretation of the 1260 days does not hold up to historical scrutiny. This is coming from one of the most avid and well known apologists the SDA church has known.

Of course, like most of the times he deviated from SDA orthodoxy, he received severe censure from the saints for it, but nonetheless, he made some good points: The issues at the end of time are 'true worship vs false worship', not 'Catholicism vs Adventism' and even not 'Sabbath vs Sunday'. We must be careful in clining so hard to traditional interpretation that we miss this important point.

Darrell

Thank you all for joining the discussion. I remain committed to the idea that we can disagree about things like this and still be brothers and sisters in the church.

Bill, I know you have a much more in depth knowledge of Roman Catholicism than I could ever have, and I respect the journey you've taken out of, and back into, the Adventist church. Still, noting the bad motives of the RC church doesn't say why we can't broaden the targets to which our prophecies might apply, looking for violations of principles rather than identifying one specific group. This is a fundamental question, it seems to me. I explicitly didn't take Roman Catholics off the list, but I do believe (as did Sam Bacchiocchi, according to Darrell) that Islam appears to be doing a very good job of acting beastly, and I wish we took as much interest in opposing militant Islam as we have in the past misdeeds of RCism. 

Shane, conditionalism has a long history in Adventist prophetic interpretation. There was a good Ministry article about this in 1986, by Tim Crosby. I agree that most often the deciding factor in conditionalism is human response. But mightn't that apply to us, as well as it did to Israel? Because we regard ourselves as the remnant, I believe we've not been very diligent in self-inspection and repentance. 

Pagophilus ("ice lover"? Is there a significance to the nickname?) there are two kind of people in the church: those who think everything is black and white, all or nothing (and therefore make statements like "there are two kind of people in the church"<---joke) and those who look for the principles and try to apply them in changing circumstances. You appear to be of the first type, and I am probably of the second. I hope we can still be friends. I assure you I have no wish to deceive anyone, only to broaden our thinking and make us a better, more diligent church.

Loren 

Just a few comments:

 -I think that the author of this article needs remember that the church's teaching on Revelation 13 does not let the Roman Catholic Institution off the hook, and neither should we.

-Other comments made it seem like the Catholic church has changed. Tell that to an Adventist pastor who was cut into pieces and delivered to our church members in a bag. (Down in South America if you're interested)

-The Inquisition is alive and well, as evidenced by Pope John Paul II re-opening the office of the Inquisition and then re-naming it. He also put an interesting figure as it's head, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger. (ie, the current Pope)

-Further, the Adventist Church is not limited in its eschatology. We include the Catholics, apostate protestants, and the modern forms of spiritualism. These entities will come together, and none can deny that.

- Many of the people who argue against the landmarks of our faith ultimately end up leaving our faith. We all need to be careful that we are seeking the Lord's will and not our own. We are on enchanted ground when we are out to make a name for ourselves. Be careful my friends.

-We are not here to be politically correct. There are many Catholics who oppose our preaching but there are also many who have appreciated our message. I would encourage those who are against traditional evangelism to realize that people just like me accepted Jesus as their Savior because of evangelism. I would encourage us to quit shirking the responsibility that God has given us all: proclaiming the Gospel, which includes the warning against the mark of the Beast.

 I guess we should all be quiet and not preach. We would thereby leave troubled young people like myself out in the dark wondering what in the world is going on and how to have peace.

-Lastly, I would encourage all to give Marvin Moore's book "Could It Really Happen?" a read. You can find it at the ABC.

I agree with Loren Seibold's premise that we have been fixated on what the Catholic Church has done in the distant past and what Ellen White predicted it will do in the future. We may eventually experience what Jonah felt when what he preached with incredible success failed to transpire. The entire city of Niniveh repented, and God's preacher, instead of rejoicing, felt like he wanted to die. Of course, for him, his reputation was worth more than the lives of thousands of human beings.

Christians have long debated the identity of the Beast of Revelaton and have tried to attach the enigmatic 666 number to Rome, forgetting in the process that what we need to watch is not whether our math is correct but rather whether the character of the Beast matches the behavior of the Catholic church today.

We need to ask ourselves: Why did the Lord use the image of ferocious animals to represent certain earthly powers? Because beasts of prey target the weak and defenseless in their killing rampage. If this is the case, then what we need to do is watch the behavior of political and religious entities instead of trying to decipher enigmatic numbers which have been applied to even Ellen White. 

It is true that Rome did persecute the saints in the past and it may do it again in the future, but who is doing this beastly task today and who has done this in the recent past? How about Hitler, Idi Amin, the soviet Union, China, Bin Laden and Moslem extremists? Who has killed more innocent victims of persecution?

And how about the United States? Didn't we Americans exterminate 50 million innocent human beings in our abortion clinics, about 20 of those owned and operated by Seventh-day Adventists in good standing with the church?

Nic Samojluk, Editor www.sdaforum.com  & www.letsfocusonlife.comi

It is sad to see that there are still SDAs who  will never be convinced other than the Jesuits are infiltrating Adventism.

 Get a grip and get real!  Why in God's earth would the Jesuits care one whit about such a small denomination as the Adventists?  It's the small church so afraid of the largest that they constantly accuse Catholicsm of being the beast.

Such ideology completely ignores history that the early church that John's revelation was addressing were being terribly persecuted by Nero, Domitian and the Roman Empire--there was no Roman Catholic church until centuries later!

Today, rather than the Jesuits, it is the Islamic fundamentalists that are attacking U.S. liberties, not any religious organization per se. 

Fundamentalists of all stripes:  Christian, Muslim and the Lubivitchers are those that are to be feared.  They wish to take things in their own hands and believe that whatever they do will be with their god's blessing.

 Frankly, SDA fundamentalists are out to take over the church and make it so exclusive it will only allow  them (and maybe not even those) to continue membership.

Hugo, you write above:

Are you really prepared to join Ellen White, and claim the Catholic Church is incapabale of "renouncing. . . her course in past ages?"...

You are referring to Bill Cork's quotation which was as follows:

As Rome asserts that the 'church never erred; nor will it, according to the Scriptures, ever err', how can she renounce the principles which governed her course in past ages? ...

Thus it would appear that your quote of Bill's quote was inaccurate. Bill's quote referred to a refusal to renounce principles rather than a refusal to renounce her course.

In the end the two thoughts may overlap, or the one may lead to the other. But the distinction is helpful in terms of this discussion.

Can you name one single principle that governed Rome's past course that she has now renounced? Can you name just one?

Last I checked the pope was still a dictator for life, unelected by the people he claims to rule, with no separation of powers, no constitution, no procedure for impeachment, and no checks and balances. Therefore, the papacy as a civil power is about as unamerican as it gets, since what the papacy stands for is the polar opposite of what this country and nation, including the Roman Catholics of our nation, have lived and died for.

Beyond consideration of the principles of civil government that our nation was founded upon and has promoted, the pope claims he doesn't have to answer to anyone since he takes the place of God on earth. John Paul II endorsed that basic position in Crossing the Threshold of Hope. So what has changed?

Someone mentioned Vatican II. But it was Vatican II that endorsed the old principle that it isn't wrong for the poor to steal from the riches of others when they really, really, really need to, a principle prelates in Brazil used to defend the practice of robbing grocery trucks.

That never has made sense to me. Instead of telling the poor it is all right to steal, why didn't those prelates teach the rich that they are going to fry awhile if they don't help the poor? Instead of telling the poor it is all right to sin, why not tell the rich they can't go to heaven if they stand back and let the poor starve?

I don't know of any principle the Rome of today has abandoned.

Finally, I thought, my husband is off the hook. He was born a Catholic, 16 years of Catholic schools & his 2 aunts were nuns. I was born into the SDA church, attended the schools. I had 4 children when we got married, so he went to the SDA church with us. He paid their tuition at Adventist schools. No pork or seafood at our table. And every week, almost without fail, someone in SS or church would rail about Catholicism, the Pope or the Mark of the Beast. I was mortified most of the time. Once the children were raised, I was through. My only contact with the SDA church is AT.

Do you have any idea what "The Mark" & "The Beast" sounds like to a non-Adventist who's hearing it for the first time? Think about trying to explain it, from scratch, in the car, on a 6 mile drive home from church. Fortunately, my husband has a sense of humor: As soon as we walked in the door he started chasing me around the house, yelling "I'm the beast, I'm the beast & I'm gonna get your forehead & your hand." The whole family laughed until our sides hurt.  The kids were too young to get the true significance of what was going on.

Unless you really do NOT want a 'non-believer' attending your church, ministers & SS teachers should mind their tongues. At least think first about who might be in the pews. And if you do not want non-SDAs in church, what's the point? 

Mil7007, 

>>>"Other comments made it seem like the Catholic church has changed. Tell that to an Adventist pastor who was cut into pieces and delivered to our church members in a bag. (Down in South America if you're interested)."

Did the Catholic Church authorize this terrible act? Does its moral theology approve? The answer is a resounding no. What those individuals did was despicable, and I, precisely as a Catholic, condemn it, and all other violations of religious liberty and attacks on life. However, the individuals in question are at fault--not the Church, which has made her teaching on religious liberty quite clear for decades now.

>>>"The Inquisition is alive and well, as evidenced by Pope John Paul II re-opening the office of the Inquisition and then re-naming it. He also put an interesting figure as it's head, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger. (ie, the current Pope)"

I agree with BUTAYL when he wrote " The end is just around the corner."  It has been so for some 2,000 years ago.  He is not the first to make this statement.

Jesus was the first one to make this statement: Matthew 24:34—34 “I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.”

Peter was the seconde person who said they were living in the last days: 2:17" 'In the last days, God says,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.

Paul believed he was living in the end times: 2 Thess 4:16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18Therefore encourage each other with these words.

He clearly writes that he would be one of those to see Jesus return.

Peter again made it clear that the return of Jesus was just around the corner when he wrote in his epistle: 1 Peter 4  7 "The end of all things is near."

James taught that they were living in the last hour before Jesus would return" James 5: 7Be patient, then, brothers, until the Lord's coming. See how the farmer waits for the land to yield its valuable crop and how patient he is for the autumn and spring rains. 8You too, be patient and stand firm, because the Lord's coming is near. 9Don't grumble against each other, brothers, or you will be judged. The Judge is standing at the door!

John reminded the people in both his epistle and Revelation that they were in the last hour, that "the end was just around the corner."

1 John 2: 18 ‘Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour.

Revelation 1: 1 “The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ. 3Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.”

Rev 22:7 "Behold, I am coming soon! Blessed is he who keeps the words of the prophecy in this book.”

10 Then he told me, "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, because the time is near.

12 "Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done. 13I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.

20 He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I am coming soon."
Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.

David Newman

Editor, Adventist Today

Brikony, 

You can find Bacchiocchi's musings at this link. His prophetic take on Islam starts about page 21.

http://www.biblicalperspectives.com/endtimeissues/eti_86.pdf

Allow me to just brainstorm out loud here for a moment.  For the record I'm a 4th generation Adventist, so I am very familiar with all the prophecies, symbols, empires, last day event charts, etc. etc.

I'm not one of those people who is claiming to have new light.  I have a particular disdain for

Adventist offshoots, who major in just shooting off their mouths.   But I have wondered for a long time if  maybe Satan has a curve ball he will throw at Adventists.   What better way to get the unwary by surprise than to bring about his final deception through different means that we may least expect.

Satan knows  what's written in Great Controversy better than we do.  Remember he is a master of deception, so while we are fixated on the papacy and Sunday laws,  have you ever considered the possibility that maybe, just maybe he will switch the script.  What general wouldn't, if he already knew that his enemy was in on his battle plan and was establishing a bulkhead  against him at the point they knew he would attack.

During World War II, Hitler was certain the allies would launch an attack to gain a beachhead on the shores of France.  The problem was he didn't know WHERE it would be.  The allies had General George  Patton engaging in  false military manuvers  to try and trick Hitler to thinking they were going to attack at a different location than the beaches at Normandy.  On D-Day the greatest offensive of military undertaking  was launched  at a point on the coast of France that Hitler had not suspected it would take place.  The element of surprise gave the allies just the edge they needed for their assault to be successful.  While the carnage was indeed high for the allied troops,,  it would have been far worse had Hitler  further fortified his defenses at Normandy in an anticipation of the invasion  happening there.

While I take great caution, in suggesting something different than what Ellen White prophecied in her day, I am nontheless mindful that when she wrote the book Great Controversy,  protestants in general saw the Catholic Church as the antiChrist.  Also, the Blaire Amendment, that would have instituted a national Sunday law, was before Congress for several years around that time.

With the message of Righteousness by Faith that was presented at the 1888 general conference session, the stage was set for the final events of this earth history to reach its climax and prepare a people to meet their Lord, whose soon would have been immanent.

But like Israel of old, an opportunity was lost, and well.... we've stuck to  script of riding the beast with spurs on, ever since, thinking we are giving the 3 angels message. 

While I don't want to minimize the influence the catholic church has had  now, in the past,or may in the future,  I think too many Adventist are operating on boogyman religion and beastly preaching claiming that all world leaders today are mere puppets of the pope , and that every bad thing that has ever happened has a Jesuit plot behind it.  

So do we just write off all our prophetic beliefs as we have held  for over a century now?  Not at all, but I do think we need to put them in a contemporary setting and be mindful that Satan will have some surprises.

Look over the worlds political landscape and what religion seems to be in ascendancy, that displays some of the radical conversion by the sword, with deadly consequences to those they deem as heretics, just like catholicism did in years long past?  Islamic fundamentalism  is also the dominant religion in the very part of the world, where religion and state are indivisible. The political volatility of that region, coupled with  their vast oil reserves,  that is the lifeblood of the industrialized world,, is unsettling to say the least.

I know I'm really going out on a limb even saying this, but what if, Satan decides to switch strategies and Friday (the Moslem day of worship)  rather than Sunday becomes the counterfeit Sabbath.  I know it sounds crazy and I shouldn't even toss it out there as a possibility. But I do it, to show that a singular focus on last day events can produce all kinds of scenerios.

Whatever the  future holds as far as details of earth's final events as they unfold, I want to know the voice of the Shepherd and trust the keeping of my soul to HIM alone.  That is where my greatest focus of attention and study lie.  As important as prophecy is in the minds of Adventists, to me it is  secondary  to the greatest  need to know Jesus in a very personal way.

As for letting Catholics off the hook...well some better bait that will lure some of them to get unhooked on man-made religion and hooked  on Christ righteousness alone as the only means to salvation sounds like a good starting point.

Inquisitive,

Great apologetics! I do not think a theologian could do much better. From the data it appears he is NOT coming back. So what to do? Invent reasons for it not being as foretold. If God does not measure time as we do, what pray tell is his "scale"? I wish someone could answer that. From your post you suggest that Gods time clock is running at a very different rate if 1 day = 1000 yrs in Gods time reckoning.  I wish I could be alive 10,000 yrs from now to see the creative arguments that will have to be employed to deal with the continued absence of Christ's 2nd coming. 

There is another possibility and that is to say we have no clue as to what some of those texts really mean in terms of predicting Christ's 2nd coming. So in the meantime, why not just admit we do not know what we are talking about and dispense with babbling SDA eschatology. 

David Newman, you write:

Paul believed he was living in the end times: 2 Thess 4:16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18Therefore encourage each other with these words.

He clearly writes that he would be one of those to see Jesus return.

This is incorrect. The Thessalonians understood Paul to mean this, which was why Paul wrote 2 Thess. 2 back to them, telling them that it was a deception at that time to think that Jesus' coming was at hand. Paul is clear that the 1260-year reign of the little horn of Daniel 7 had to occur first before one could correctly preach that Christ's coming was at hand.

The apostle Paul warned the church not to look for the coming of Christ in his day. "That day shall not come," he says, "except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed." 2 Thessalonians 2:3. Not till after the great apostasy, and the long period of the reign of the "man of sin," can we look for the advent of our Lord. The "man of sin," which is also styled "the mystery of iniquity," "the son of perdition," and "that wicked," represents the papacy, which, as foretold in prophecy, was to maintain its supremacy for 1260 years. This period ended in 1798. The coming of Christ could not take place before that time. Paul covers with his caution the whole of the Christian dispensation down to the year 1798. It is this side of that time that the message of Christ's second coming is to be proclaimed. (GC 356)

Thus, the Thessalonians misunderstood the 1 Th. 4, which is what Paul was referring to in 2 Th. when he wrote about a "letter as from us." Let us not repeat their mistake.

"The enemy of souls has sought to bring in the supposition that a great reformation was to take place among Seventh-day Adventists, and that this reformation would consist in giving up the doctrines which stand as the pillars of our faith, and engaging in a process of reorganization. Were this reformation to take place, what would result? The principles of truth that God in His wisdom has given to the remnant church, would be discarded. Our religion would be changed. The fundamental principles that have sustained the work for the last fifty years would be accounted as error. A new organization would be established. Books of a new order would be written. A system of intellectual philosophy would be introduced. The founders of this system would go into the cities, and do a wonderful work."  

1 Selected Messages 204

Reading the article and some of the comments after, brought sorrow to the soul and tears to my eyes. History has tought us a lesson that many today seem to ignore. When you stop seeing the Papacy for what it really is, instead of turning away from it, you start turning towards it. Look at the Reformation during the dark ages and look at it now, well it is not Protestant nor reformed any longer, It is "Ecumenical." The Papacy had to change its image in order to attain the status it holds worlwide. Remenber Revelations 13:3, "all the world wondered after the beast", that is after the deadly wound was healed. And don't forget Daniel 8:25, "by peace shall destroy many." So please don't be fooled by his (the Papacy's) academy award winning performance. And with respect to Ellen G. White's writtings, it is precisely in our days that we can honestly testify to her prophetic accuracy in all aspects of life. So let's keep Jesus in our hearts, let him be seen in our character and in our conduct, but keep an open eye on the Papacy because it was Jesus testimony that warned us (Rev. 19:10) not man or woman.

I find it interesting that we refer to the papacy as if it is a single person with a life of its own - as if the same living organism responsible for the inquisition is the same one we see in Rome today.

Do we hold the current head archbishop of the Anglican church responsible for the atrocities against Catholics that occured in England?  Do we rail against the throne of England because we believe deep in their heart they are just waiting for the opportunity to return to the days where they could behead people with impunity? 

Right now the papacy is defined by a single person - Benedict.  I will wait and see his actions before I judge him.  Should we be asking forgiveness from or thanking the popes of the past who, since 1844, have intentionally or unintentionally NOT fulfilled their prophetic papal destiny? I understand the whole Spirit of Prophecy writings and interpretations of Scripture, but shouldn't we wait until the prophecies have substantially come to pass before we start the bulk of our fear, loathing and casting of aspersions?

Should we be praying for Benedict, who currently represents the papacy, that God will guide him in the right direction?  Or is it wrong to pray for the "papacy" because we see it as intrinsically evil?  I am concerned we only see institutions and not human beings behind them.

Excuse me jefmer, but you said that it was Jesus testimony, that warned us (of the Papacy) and not man or woman.  Jesus specifically warned his followers about  false prophets who appear as wolves in sheep's clothing who would try and influence and sway them from sound doctrine that He was the only Way, the Truth, and the Life.  You are right that we need to keep Jesus in our hearts, but to some Adventists their primary focus seems in keeping the Pope and catholicism in their gun sights. Entire ministries, proliferate around  Adventism, whose sole purpose for existence seems to be to ride the beast with spurs and stake out fanatical  viewpoints, by wresting the writings of EGW out of their context and what was going on at the time she wrote them.

This article may be misleading but it should point us to the daughters of the Beast. Islam was created by the Roman Catholics and also with Communism. See Walter Veith Videos and former Jesuit Priest Alberto Rivera's magazines. They all fit in. Even other Protestant Organization are infiltrated by Roman Catholic agents and had healed the wound through Eccumunism and made all the world wonder after the Beast. For these churches who once stood for the Lord are the RC's daughters in Revelation to help the purpose of the Beast.  Their doctrines have been compromised. We are still right on track with Revelation's prophecy and also with Ellen White, like the Sunday Laws which now little by little is being implemented. Seeing other denominations and countries supporting it.

If any of you have read the Jesuit Creed it is really unimaginable. We have Jesuits in our organizations too who try to confuse us and discourage us in believing the Bible and EG White writtings for they know very well it speaks against them. Read EGW books for she warns us too with these imposters who would even be in our pulpits preaching and may be leaders in our church. So don't be confused, focus on Jesus the author and finisher of our faith, the Bible and never doubt the prophecies for "Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand." Rev. 1:3 (KJV).

God bless you all!

I still think the spirit behind this article is totally misleading. Tom, Revelations 19:10 reads as follows: And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellow servant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus "is the spirit of prophecy." This simply means that Isaiah doesn't contradict Jeremiah, Daniel, Noah, Moses, Enoch, Abraham, John, Paul, Peter or Samuel, because the Spirit that inspired them was the same. The message they proclaimed for their time, came from the same Source. He gives over 50 identifying characteristics of this system throughout the Holy Scriptures so we would have no trouble identifying it. There is only one "system" on earth that can fulfill all of the identifying characteristics or "one living organism" as Billm likes to call it, and that is the Papacy.

The Holy Scriptures tell us that the dragon gave his power, and his seat, and great authority to this institution (Rev. 13:2) So we speak of this "one living organism" as one because the spirit that inspires it, is the dragon, the serpent of old. If you keep up with current events precisely around the Papacy, you will see that Bible prophecy is right on the button. Islam will just help it reach its final role like September 11th helped the Patriot Acts in and the Constitution out. The real big problem is that "sound doctrine" is something that the vast majority of "Christians" ignore. If any of the Reformers came back to life and saw what their denominations believe and preach, they would die of a heart attack, knowing that most of the theology preached today came from the system they helped unmask. Sound Doctrine is: And call no man your "father" upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven (Mat 23:9).

I do recall Jesus saying that, even in all the adulterated modern versions of the Bible. Pope means father, in Spanish "Papa" means father and so on in other languages. All the Reformers identified the Papacy for what it is, because they used the Holy Scriptures only, which the Holy Spirit of God inspired. In turn the Holy Spirit used them to totally unmask this "Christianized" pagan system of worship which casts down the Truth to the ground (Daniel 8:12). The spirit that has turned everything upside down is another spirit; so beware my brothers that you don't end up fighting God instead of the one he warned us about...

Keep the faith[?]

Could you tell me who the Jesuits are? What kind of dirt do you have on them?

Thanks in advance.

Loren, The Great Controversy was not written on the basis of the times or Ellen White's own suppositions, but on the basis of Bible prophecy and confirmations from the Most High God.  The papacy is now trying to batter down the wall of separation between church and state every where she can.  She is aggressively on the move, boldly insinuating herself into the affairs of our government here in the United States, seeking to influence our president, courts and elected representatives.  She is maneuvering to reign over the European Union and resurrect the Holy Roman Empire - she wants Sunday observance enshrined in EU law, and seeks a clause that would force every citizen in the European Union to rest on Sunday.  In no small part because of papal influence, Germany and Croatia already have a national Sunday law!

Even if we did not have the precious gift of the Spirit of Prophecy, history and current events testify that the papacy is unchanged!  In his apostolic letter: Ad Tuendam Fidem, May 18, 1998, John Paul mentioned canon 1436.1 which says, “One who denies a truth which must be believed with divine and Catholic faith, or who calls it into doubt… is to be punished as a heretic or an apostate with major excommunication…”

Roman Catholic Author, Malachi Martin says in his book, The Keys of this Blood: "He is as determined to be world ruler as was Constantine in his day" (p. 49), and "The other two major contenders in the millennium endgame will be ELIMINATED" (* emphasis added). p. 657. The fearful thing is that one (the Soviets) of these contenders is already eliminated. 

Prophecy is fulfilling remarkably before our very eyes!  "God has revealed what is to take place in the last days, that his people may be prepared to stand against the tempest of opposition and wrath."  

What Ellen White wrote on the basis of Bible prophecy is now coming to pass on a grand scale in front of the entire world!  It is more relevant now than ever.  With all due respect, you give the trumphet an uncertan sound.

John Trainor

It is getting rather old to continually hear that the SDA church is infiltrated by Jesuits.  Perhaps I might be considered one simply on the basis of attending and graduating from a Jesuit university?

 Please submit some concrete evidences that the Jesuits have infiltrated the SDA church.  This has been an accusation for many years and yet I have never seen any proof whatsoever, only accusations.  FWIW:  accusations are never evidence, merely paranoid thoughts verbally expressed, demonstrating that the accusers consistently have such unfounded illusions (delusions?)

Revelation is clear in presenting The Beast as a single entity, described as a kingdom and a church in one. This can be solely applied to the Roman Catholic Church, which is the only Church-State that fits the bill, both as recognized in the biblical characteristics that described her and in its own history which has fulfilled the prophecies in its own past, and present and soon be to fulfilled in the future.   As such there is only one power in this earth that fulfills the requirements for this identification of the Beast, and that is the Roman Catholic Church.  

For a person to say otherwise, and even suggest that other powers may be "The Beast", means a lack of understanding of the Biblical prophetic message already fulfilled and presently fulfilled, as given in the Bible and recognized in the SOP. Such a person is speaking and giving his own opinion, and in no way represents the Adventist Message.

The error he and many others have committed in the understanding of the Beast is their failure to see in it  the "empire" characteristics it has. This will become evident if we take  Soviet Russia as an example,  which grew initially as formed by the union of a few socialist republics until eventually more of them united to form the Soviet Union....but eventually it fragmented... Looking with the same glasses to the Beast, and its historical growth and eventual demise, perhaps we can understand how other factors or nations may play a part in"the Beast" history...not by becoming the beast itself, but by allying with the Beast, becoming part of her in like manner as those socialists republics became part of Soviet Russia.  

So a quick look to the Beast, with the proper understanding of its power and the extend of this same power, needs to be done within the context of time: 

1)Rev. 13 first part

Supreme Time Period= the middle ages up to 1798 AD

Supreme beast of the Middle Ages up to 1798 AD = its allies the European kingdoms(10 kings, 10 horns with crowns upon them) initially,  but by the end of this time period this domain and resultant power have grown and extends to include the New World colonies. 

2) Rev. 13 middle part  and Rev. 17 first part=

Wounded Time period, yet healing= our times

The Wounded Powerless Beast of the time of the end(our times), yet healing= initially wounded by being almost destroyed by France during the French Revolution in 1798 AD, at which point it looses its powers and lands,  (especifically loosing its power source by loosing the support of its  allied kingdoms(10 kings).   Why?, because those 10 kings  themselves became weak by virtue of loosing their kingdoms(crowns) and becoming republics(10 horns with no crowns)=  represented by loosing their crowns. 

These 10 kings wich have lost  their kingdoms(symbolized by loosing their crowns) not only included the new European Republics, but also included in the symbol of the 10 kings at this point in time are those other initially allied colonies of the New World which have become independant republics themselves(although initially colonies under the corresponding kingdoms allied to the Papal power,  yet when separating they became republics, and as such even them no longer support the Beast during this wounded period)  Therefore

Wounded period of Papal  Rome by definition is caused by the Papacy loosing the source of its power,  since the source of its power is found in its allied kingdoms...then when those allied kingdoms separate, attack or become weak themselves by becoming republics(loosing their crowns), in so doing they are the cause of the loss of power of the Beast itself....the cause that  wounded the Beast...

3) Rev. 13 last part, and  Rev. 17 middle part.

Revived Time Period, healed= future..getting there...

Revived Beast of the time of the end(future, getting there)=  The Papal Beast not only once again allies itself with its old allies, but also allies itself with all the other kingdoms of the world.

In fact by this point in time  the Papal domain has grown to include  all the  kingdoms of the world.  The "10 kings" is always a symbol representing the beast's domain, which has changed through time, but by the time of the end these 10 kings  representing the Beast's domain represents the whole world. It is also interesting to point out that by the time of the end, that is its later part,  all those allied nations of the world have become totalitarian kingdoms or dictatorships, this is symbolized in prophecy by those nations or "10 kings"  receiving once again their crowns. 

And yes, one of those kingdoms(USA, the lamblike beast=christian nation, that speaks(legislate) as a dragon(evil laws), will become a totalitarian power, "a kingdom". USA, as the lamblike beast(Apostate Christian Nation) will be "The Beast's front man", or right hand(if not itself the center of its empire, yet under the Beast's control, that is to say under Papal control).  This last point of where will be located the throne of the beast(Papacy)...only time will tell.

(So far we have seen how USA has incorporated Papal laws in its own political make up, these laws are also known as  Cannon Laws, in USA legistlated and called "Patriots laws", which were written by Jesuists  as many writers rightly tell us.  Papal laws  are also represented in torture laws, laws against personal rights, even faith based initiatives...)

4) Rev. 17 last part and  Rev. 18

Rewounded time period of the beast...goes to perdition= even future yet..near the very end.

The Rewounded Beast, that is to say which will once again become wounded, is to happen at the very end, future to us.  The Papacy at that point will once again loose its previously regained supremacy(just as it in 1798 AD when it had lost its supremacy of the Middle Ages). 

This "rewounding"is represented by the fragmentation of its " time of the end world empire".  The Papal Empire fragments (just like Russia fragmented) by virtue of the rejection and broken alliances by the kingdoms of the world(by the rebellion of the 10 kings) the same that once formed the same empire, in fact  which were part of this empire's domain.  Actually these same "previous allies" themselves will be key players in the Beast's destruction...they will burned the Papacy, and its front man....guess who that is?

As such...many are the powers in this world againts the saints, as the writer of this post, rightly sees.  Yet  he fails to see that the danger and associated tribulation caused by so many worldwide sources do not have the origin in themselves, but in its leader Papal Rome, and its soldiers the Jesuist army.

In fact  the writter of this post fails to see that all these forces or enemies of the true christian are in fact guided and allied by secret entities or secret societies under Papal control...The head (the Beast) is and will be Papal Rome...which ever stage of its history we might be addressing...

So, seen Rome as an empire that grows as it makes more alliances with more and more kingdoms, which although built on alliances, it is also broken by the disruption of those same alliances, is a key factor in the proper understanding This Beast and in the proper understanding of its history....

When speaking of the beast, we need to keep the TIME FACTOR into account, this will facilitate its understanding, since the beast of the Middle Ages, at its inception, has not the same power and alliances as the beast of a later time periods.  IN FACT we have a beast passing through different stages of its existence with different stages of growth and power...symbolized by the corresponding different consecutive heads as represented in Revelation(5th to 8th heads specifically)...of which stage are we speaking, that is to say of which head are we talking about implies a totally different circumstances and a totally different degree of power...

As such prophetic variations in dominance are given, starting from a local power that becomes a continental supreme powe(5th head), to the next period when it looses this power(6th head), to the next period when it regains this power, yet, reviving even with more extensive energy(7th head), to finally loose it once again this time for good in so doing, going to perditition(8th head); that is the history of this Papal Beast power as presented in the prophecie.

Please, we need to realize that=

The Papacy is the Beast, period!

the 10 kings= are its domain...its allied kingdoms at a given time..

USA...will be the right hand of the Beast= the lamblike beast...(if it is not totally taken over as the seat of the Papal kingdom of the time of the end)

and Babylon the Great...is the Papal Church Empire, of the time of the End, as represented by the Revived Phase(alliances of church/states under the Papal Church/State) ...the Papal Beast and the united world kingdoms (10 kings) under the Papal Banner will bring on the Final tribulation, which is to end with its final confrontation known as the battle attempt at Armageddon; where their final defeat is found as orchestrated by God Himself (which aborts such a conflict) in so doing liberating the saints.

ARMAGEDDON =   THE FINAL CONFRONTATION IS OF THE ANTICHRIST AND ITS ARMIES(THE KINGDOMS OF THE WORLD, AKA 10 KINGS) AGAINTS CHRIST AND HIS SAINTS.  IN WHICH CHRIST OVERCOMES THEM AND LIBERATES THE SAINTS, WHICH PARTICIPATE IN HIS VICTORY.

The idea that other nations or people are The Beast, as the writer of this post suggest is simply wrong.  He has failed to see that all those powers or entities are working under the Papal command...most likely as induced by the Papal Jesuist Army... 

God bless,

Brunie

Well, in my church a Pastor was found with an ID of the Jesuists and after this left the church.  Also Alberto, a previous Jesuist says that the SDA church was the first in being infiltrated by Jesuist.

brunie

My best response to this article is to provide of a copy of the response I received from a well respected brother after I sent the article to him.  His response was as follows:

I read the letter and it is of private interpretation and is so far removed from Revelation 13, 17, and Daniel 11 that it is intellectually offensive to comment on it any further, even though I could take his Ellen White and thoroughly refute his theological jargon, much less with the Bible.  

I had a friend long time ago that was into the deadly snakes and spiders and the like and was friends with the Jungle Larry from the TV show. He had a pig nose viper in his basement and when he would open the top of the cage and slowly wave his hand over the top of the cage that viper would hiss the most awful sound known to man and you knew there was something very evil and very deadly just a few feet from you, it literally made the hair on your neck stand up. This is suggesting we should cuddle up with Catholicism, (Rev. 18:24) that is like asking us to cuddle up with a pig nose viper, I don't think so.  

    “Then the Catholics bid the Protestants to go forward, and issue a decree that all who will not observe the first day of the week, instead of the seventh day, shall be slain. And the Catholics, whose numbers are large, will stand by the Protestants. The Catholics will give their power to the image of the beast. And the Protestants will work as their mother worked before them to destroy the saints.” SpM 2.

Stay vigilant and watch,

Heidi Heiks (http://thesourcehh.org/)

Like the Lord Jesus confronted the Devil during His temptation in the wilderness, I will comment on this article in the same manner: with the Scriptures. I advise that you all follow our Savior because we cannot win others by the eloquence of our arguments but it is only by the conviction of the Holy Spirit. Do not go back and forth with philosophy and vain reasonings/logic, just present the Word, for we will all be judged by it. 

Concerning the Roman Catholic Church System

1.  It is written, "Remember the sabbath day to keep it holy..." 

2. It is written, "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image..."

3. It is written, "And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of times." (1260 years) Daniel 7:25

4. It is written, "And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months"(1260 years) Revelations 13: 5

5. It is written, "Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help. His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish" Psalms 146: 3, 4

Notes from the Complete and Updated Catechism of the Catholic Church

pg 586, point 2190 (This is from the actual book)

"The sabbath, which represented the completion of the first creation, has been replaced by Sunday which recalls the new creation inagurated by the Resurrection of Christ."  

pg 254 point 882

"The Pope, Bishop of Rome and Peter's successor, "is the perpetual and visible source and foundation of the unity both of the bishops and of the whole company of the faithful. "For the Roman Pontiff, by reason of his office as Vicar of Christ, as as pastor of the entire Church as full, supreme, and universal power over the whole Church, a power which he can always exercise unhindered."

pg 272 point 958 : Communion with the dead

"...the Church in its pilgrim members, from the very earliest days of the Christian religion, has honored with great respect the memory of the dead; and because it is a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from their sins she offers her suffrages for them. Our prayers for them is capable not only of helping them, but also of making their intercession for us effective".

There are MANY more but I'm afraid, I can't fit it all in this one comment. But many doctrines that the Catholic church hold dear to their souls are opposite of what the Scriptures teach. Be careful, lest while we follow man we call God a liar.  It is written, "Ye cannot serve God and mammon". 

Admonishings To Those Who Know the Truth

6. It is written, "For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them." 2nd Peter 2: 20, 21.

7. It is written, "Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward. For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry. Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him." Hebrews 10:35-38

 Christ Second Coming

8. It is written, "Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." Matthew 24: 32-34. 

9. It is written, "But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he now aware of..." Matt 24:48-50

10.  It is written, "But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved." Matt 24:13

11.  It is written, "And the dragon was worth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." Revelations 12:17 "...for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." Revelations 19: 10.

Homosexuality

This is in response to someone's comment. I know this is a touchy subject, especially to those who have a close experience with it but sin is sin, whether it be a lie, a gossip, a lustful thought or an unkind look. Sin must be called out for the vile and rotten thing it is. There is no excuse and God is a just God, He will by no means clear the guilty. God loves the sinner but He hates sin and if we fail to renounce our love for it, we will be blotted out with it.

12. It is written, "For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another, men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet." Romans 1:26, 27.

13. And all is familiar with the story of Sodom and Gomorrah.

Brethen, this is not a time to question the Words of God but rather to hold even tighter to them. The Devil is as a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour. It is not a time to lay down our weapons and seek to compromise with our enemies. Do not be like the wicked servant who says,  the Lord delays his coming and start questioning our foundation. This, over and over again has proved to be the downfall of God's church. Look at Israel of old and the heathen countries they united with and the consequences that followed. Look at the Jewish Scribes and Pharisees who crucified our beloved Savior. Look at the Catholic Church, who started out with such purity but united with paganism to wrought that which is unseemly. Look at the Protestant churches, who during the Reformation held the Scriptures and the Scriptures alone as their rule of faith but is now running back to the arms of the one who once persecuted them, not wanting to let go of the false doctrines coined by the Catholic church. Look at us as Seventh-Day Adventists. Our foundation was richly laid down, led by the Holy Spirit, accompanied by the loud voices of not one, not two but three angels. And now we're questioning that maybe, the prophecies have another meaning? That not entirely, but somewhat, the spirit of prohecy is wrong? Wake up, we who slumber while our bridegroom tarries! Wake up and hold fast to which the Lord has given us! He tarries because if He was to come now, many of us would be lost. It is out of His tender mercies that He is giving us time to unite our souls with His. This time is not given to upbraid our very foundation. 

Beloved, hold fast to the Scriptures and the Scriptures alone, hold fast to the prophecies and the signs, Our Lord is coming. Dont' let Him find us unprepared.  God Bless and May the Spirit of the Lord guide you into all truth.

Hi, I am new to your magazine. I read this article and decided to respond to it. 

For over a century, even before the publication of The Great Controversy, we Adventists have regarded the Roman Catholic Church leadership, typified in the first beast of Revelation 13, as our arch-nemesis, our bête noire, the enemy that takes the evil part in the apocalyptic scenario against God's remnant.

This is true.

Here are seven reasons why it may be time to question them in that role.

It is not the time to question the wisdom of Jesus and His prophecy. Now is the time to stay steady and focused on the wisdom and all knowing power of Jesus and His prophecy.

1.   More than a hundred years have passed since our prophet approved these prophetic applications. Ellen White expected Jesus to return long before this.1 We're not sure why that hasn't happened. But isn't it possible that some details of the apocalyptic scenario set out in the 1890s may have changed by the 2010s? It happened to Israel. Not all of the original Old Testament prophecies about them and their role came to pass. We call it "conditional prophecy."

What is a 100 years to Jesus? He knows all of the variables and all of the decisions that people make. He has not been taken by surprise during the time from 1844 to now.

2.   Principles might be more diagnostic than players. That we oppose those who would legislate matters that should be left to an individual's conscience is a principle I value, and I'm proud of Seventh-day Adventist efforts to protect religious liberty. But if it should happen that someone other than the Roman Catholic Church begins to act like the beast of Revelation 13, we will be more ready to respond if we are watching for a violation of the principle than if waiting for one specific group to offend.

Satan will send many suitors to distract our minds. Our focus is upon the wisdom of Jesus not on how many distractions Satan can and will send.

3.   Ellen White fingered Catholicism in a very different world. Historians have shown that 19th-century American anti-Catholicism grew out of a general anti-immigrant nativism.2 In an era when we have had and could again have a liberty-loving Roman Catholic president, when Catholic immigrants have become our young work force, why can't we preach the gospel without identifying Roman Catholicism as Satan's exclusive tool?

EGW did not make up the prophecy. It is the Spirit of Christ who gave the vision to EGW, it was her job to pass on to us what Jesus said. EGW is the spokesperson, Jesus is the Originator of the prophecy.

4.   The Roman Catholic Church of today is a much different institution than it was during Ellen White's time. The Second Ecumenical Council of the Vatican (1962-1965) radically altered that denomination's theology and practices. Vatican II declared the gospel central to church theology, made worship accessible, denied that Roman Catholics only can be saved, encouraged lay Bible study, and affirmed religious liberty. While not quite a Protestant Reformation, today's Catholic Church is not the same Catholic Church referenced in our 19th-century eschatological studies. Among other things, the Second Ecumenical Council weakened Vatican authority over world Catholics-as evidenced by the 78 percent of American Catholics who oppose their church's ban on contraception.3

The Second Ecumenical Council changed nothing but the exterior of the chameleon. We are dealing with the same RCC as in the past but she still does not have sufficient power to punish heretics. When she has the power we will see the same beast of prophecy.

5.   By focusing on Roman Catholicism, we may miss more dangerous anti-Christian opponents. Far more Christians have been killed, persecuted, or denied their religious liberty by Communism, military Fascism, and Islamist extremism in the past century than by Roman Catholics; we've let these pass with minimal comment (in the case of Naziism, even offering some pusillanimous cooperation) as we continued to warn against the pope. Today religious liberty still has more dangerous enemies than Catholicism–in the United States, perhaps even some of our fellow conservative Protestants.

According to Jesus, in His book The Great Controversy the Papal power is the beast of prophecy in Rev 13:1-10. No other opponent will arise to take the place of the Papacy. We know this because of what Jesus prophecied.

6.   God has given us time to become a world church, and that changes the cast of characters in our eschatology. The "antichrists"-opposers of Christ–to many of today's world Christians are radical imams or cruel dictators. One site of Christian persecution right now is northern Nigeria, where Muslims burn churches and kill Christians.4 An eschatology that expects only Roman Catholics to initiate religious oppression, only in the United States, and only around the Sabbath question, may fail to speak prophetically should apocalyptic markers appear elsewhere.

Certainly evil people are out there as well as evil governments. But Jesus says, through Prophecy, the the Papacy is the beast of Rev 13:1-10

7.   Religious liberty has arguably improved in countries where Catholicism has influence. During my lifetime, the papacy has frequently been a force for peace and freedom. Pope John Paul II opened the first breach in the Iron Curtain, and Catholics have been more forthright in speaking against violence and oppression than many of our fellow conservative Protestants. Consider the irony that our evangelists are employing anti-Catholic teachings for soul winning in countries where the papacy helped win them that freedom! (And the even greater irony that some of us still think that calling the Pope the Antichrist is necessary to win souls to Christ.)

Religious liberty has not changed the infinite mind of Christ. He gave the prophecy because He knows what will happen. The Papacy is the Beast of Rev 13:1-10 because God said so. Jesus has not become confused in time.

Of course, we don't give the Roman Catholic church a free pass; we subject it to the same Biblical scrutiny we would any other influential world power. (And while we're at it, we'd do well always to scrutinize ourselves by the same metrics we use on others–which is Jesus' advice, not mine.5)

We should scrutinize ourselves according to the Bible. When we reject God's prophets, including EGW, we reject Jesus.

But perhaps we needn't single out Roman Catholicism any longer. Ellen White, who was often more flexible than her followers, wrote: "God wants us all to have common sense, and He wants us to reason from common sense. Circumstances alter conditions. Circumstances change the relation of things."6

Circumstances have not altered the prophecy. The RCC has not changed a single issue for it perceives itself as infallible and has not changed at all.

Roman Catholicism has served us well as an enemy: provocative enough to keep us energized, yet doing minimal actual damage to us. Such an important enemy made us feel significant, "in the know," and in control, while not really disturbing our lives.

Jesus is the One who knows it all and He has spoken. Altering the prophecy has not changed the mind of God. He knows the end from the beginning.

Opposing current enemies might thrust us into prophetic roles that take more commitment and action. My friend Bert B. Beach, speaking of Adventist eschatology, once said to me: "I'm suspicious when people are constantly focused on what's going to happen in the future. I think they're trying to avoid dealing with what's going on right now."

I would trust Jesus as having a higher voice of authority than even Mr. Beach.

I think Bert is on to something. Could we become as enthusiastic in taking on the religious persecution that's happening to Christians right now, in places like Nigeria, as we've been in accusing Roman Catholicism of planning to someday persecute us here?

All evil is evil. But not all evil fulfills prophecy. The Roman Catholic Church is still the beast of Rev 13:1-10 and prophecy will fulfill just as Jesus stated unless the RCC has repented of her sins and actually changed. She has done neither, therefore the prophecy remains intact. 

Wow! Alberto.  I read his little comicbook twenty-some years ago while I was in Europe.  Among other things I was doing a lot of studying about the history of Christianity in the south German speaking regions.  I found the revelation of Jesuit infiltration highly alarming and spent several days considering what an appropriate response would be.  The only effective response is to decentralize power.  All other responses simple lead to ever deepening paranoia where no one can be trusted.

And speaking of trust --- I would love to hear more about the pastor with the "Jesuist" ID.  What was the name of the church?  What was the name of the pastor?  Where is a picture of said ID?  What was the purpose of an ID? When did this occur? That kind of a story should certainly have recieved some press coverage, even if only Adventist.

You should be easily able to supply these details since it happened "in my church".

Ever since learning about Walter Veith and his lectures I've been wondering how a mad scientist (not so sure about the "scientist") can have seemingly so many followers (listeners?). He seems to me to be a typical example of those about which Clifford asks "do we create them or do we attract them?". But of course, Cliff Goldstein is a Jesuit plant, too ;-)

Mark

Hansen here's a link about the Jesuit's creed...

It was exposed by Former Jesuit Priest Alberto Rivera...

http://www.reformation.org/jesuit-oath.html

Pastor Loren I hope you have not over looked EGW wiritings...

It is Satan's plan to weaken the faith of God's people in the Testimonies. Next follows skepticism in regard to the vital points of our faith, the pillars of our position, then doubt as to the Holy Scriptures, and then the downward march to perdition. When the Testimonies, which were once believed, are doubted and given up, Satan knows the deceived ones will not stop at this; and he redoubles his efforts till he launches them into open rebellion, which becomes incurable and ends in destruction.--4T 211.

Perhaps the Catholic Church can help us understand the position Adventists must take to remain Adventists. 

"Seventh-Day Adventism cannot change  Its views on the Catholic Church being the Whore of Babylon without admitting that it was wrong on Sunday worship. It cannot admit that Sunday worship is not the mark of the beast without changing its views on the Jewish Sabbath.

Seventh-Day Adventism cannot cease to be Anti-Catholic without ceasing to be Seventh-Day Adventism." 

http://www.catholic.com/library/Seventh_Day_Adventism.asp

Rich

It's a sad picture we portray to the world we are called to witness to, if we are to be known more for what we are against than what  we are for.   Some of the comments here have defintely made my point of those who jump on the beast and ride it with spurs.

It's still a free country and I suppose that if some prefer to zero in on what to watch out for and oppose more than what we should lift up and  embrace  that's their privledge.  

As I have read my Bible and try to find a deeper understanding and closer walk and love of God, my focus has been on how best to portray Him to others.  

As there are two sides to every coin, an obverse and reverse, so there is in looking at human history from the biblical view  in the context of the great spiritual conflict between Christ and Satan.

Like the hub of a bicycle wheel that is kept centered by equal tension  of the spokes on opposite sides of it, so must the Bible be studied.  To simply finger the Papacy, as  some do, as Babylon in total is to forget where it all started in the first place and what is at the core of it all.

Ask most SDA's what Babylon means and they will say confusion.  That is true, but that's not all it is.  God promised never to destroy the  earth with  a flood again.  The rainbow was to be a reminder to generations both then and in the future of God's promise.

Those who decided to build the Tower  of Babel did so for 2 reasons.  First they didn't trust God at his word, which  led them to, second, divise a man-made method to save themselves just in case there was another flood. At the very core of Babylon is the notion that man can save himself; man-made righteousness in place of Christ's righteousness alone.

The system of Roman Catholicism certainly fits that description.  So what's my point.  I think to the extent that too many Adventists have been so focused on Jesuits, Sunday laws, and last day events charts, they've  looked at only one side of the coin (the back side).   

The front side of the coin is "RIGHTEOUSNESS BY FAITH'". At the very end, one interest wil prevail, one subject will swallow up every other subject, Christ our righteousness.

Yes, the Catholic Church has changed.In temporal terms it has greatly improved, I even support many political and social organizations with close ties to the Catholic Churc. But in spiritual terms it is still as an institution Apostate -- idolatry is probably the most potent examples of this. 

Hey, mhouston, I wonder if you ever read what Ellen G. White wrote about the jesuits? Well, if you haven't here you go:

“Throughout Christendom, Protestantism was menaced by formidable foes. The first triumphs of the Reformation past, Rome summoned new forces, hoping to accomplish its destruction. At this time the order of the Jesuits was created, the most cruel, unscrupulous, and powerful of all the champions of popery. Cut off from earthly ties and human interests, dead to the claims of natural affection, reason and conscience wholly silenced, they knew no rule, no tie, but that of their order, and no duty but to extend its power. The gospel of Christ had enabled its adherents to meet danger and endure suffering, undismayed by cold, hunger, toil, and poverty, to uphold the banner of truth in face of the rack, the dungeon, and the stake. To combat these forces, Jesuitism inspired its followers with a fanaticism that enabled them to endure like dangers, and to oppose to the power of truth all the weapons of deception. There was no crime too great for them to commit, no deception too base for them to practice, no disguise too difficult for them to assume. Vowed to perpetual poverty and humility, it was their studied aim to secure wealth and power, to be devoted to the overthrow of Protestantism, and the re-establishment of the papal supremacy.

 

“When appearing as members of their order, they wore a garb of sanctity, visiting prisons and hospitals, ministering to the sick and the poor, professing to have renounced the world, and bearing the sacred name of Jesus, who went about doing good. But under this blameless exterior the most criminal and deadly purposes were often concealed. It was a fundamental principle of the order that the end justifies the means. By this code, lying, theft, perjury, assassination, were not only pardonable but commendable, when they served the interests of the church. Under various disguises the Jesuits worked their way into offices of state, climbing up to be the counselors of kings, and shaping the policy of nations. They became servants to act as spies upon their masters. They established colleges for the sons of princes and nobles, and schools for the common people; and the children of Protestant parents were drawn into an observance of popish rites. All the outward pomp and display of the Romish worship was brought to bear to confuse the mind and dazzle and captivate the imagination, and thus the liberty for which the fathers had toiled and bled was betrayed by the sons. The Jesuits rapidly spread themselves over Europe, and wherever they went, there followed a revival of popery.” — E. G. White, The Great Controversy, pp. 234, 235, 1911, Pacific Press Publishing Assn.

And Jesus said, "By their fruits ye shall know them." (Matt. 7:16 & 20)

So this might seem a bit far fetched, especially to the ones that ignore true history; but their fruits testify to us all that they are diligently at work. You don't need a snap shot of one of them with his hands in the cookie jar, just reading articles like this one tell you to trust securely in the testimony of Jesus.

In no way I imply anything on Pr. Loren, I just look at the fact of ever growing doubting Adventist on fundamental Adventist theology and Adventist joining the Ecumenical Movement and Adventist embracing "celebration" and clearly see their work at hand.

It is very interesting to note that the same power that gave the apparent deadly wound to the beast in 1798, was the same power that re-instituted the jesuit order in 1814. Just something to think about...

And may the Lord of Hosts keep blessing men like Walter Julius Veith...

KTF,

The kind of material you deal in is what I describe as occult history.  Maybe true, maybe not. It has no redemptive value. Included in this type of material are conspiracy theories regarding Bible versions, the Illuminati, EGW slapping Fannie Bolton around, and so forth.

There are more valuable areas of expertise, I assure you.

1. It is articles just like these the help the “deadly wound to heal”? 

2. That it is articles like these that will help “all the world to wonder after the beast”?

3. That the only reason why all the world will “wonder after the beast” is because the beast power will seem all subdued, and appear as though it has left its former “ways”? And that this is how it regains its power? by appearing so "loving"?  That we are viewing the Papacy in the same light as Eve viewed the serpent, until it was too late? That Satan is speaking "nice" things through the "beast/serpent", and being hypnotized by its breath?

4. That Sister White makes it very clear that if the Church was doing what it is supposed to, the fires of persecution would be rekindled?  Read it yourself: "Why is it, then, that persecution seems in a great degree to slumber? The only reason is, that the church has conformed to the world's standard, and therefore awakens no opposition. The religion which is current in our day is not of the pure and holy character that marked the Christian faith in the days of Christ and His apostles. It is only because of the spirit of compromise with sin, because the great truths of the Word of God are so indifferently regarded, because there is so little vital godliness in the church, that Christianity is apparently so popular with the world. Let there be a revival of faith and power of the early church, and the spirit of persecution will be revived, and the fires of persecution will be rekindled."--The Great Controversy, p. 48.

5. That it is articles like these that make the Catholic Church so “nice” to us?  

I don’t think the editors of this magazine are taking these factors into account!   May God help us to wake up!

~ Lysimachus

"The Scriptures teach that popery is to regain its lost supremacy, and that the fires of persecution will be rekindled through the time-serving concessions of the so-called Protestant world. In this time of peril we can stand only as we have the truth and the power of God. Men can know the truth only by being themselves partakers of the divine nature. We have need now for more than human wisdom in reading and searching the Scriptures; and if we come to God's Word with humble hearts, He will raise up a standard for us against the lawless element." {2SM 367.4}

“much that is similar has gone on in our denomination.”?!  

Loren,

Twenty-six years in the church and I have never once heard of a case of pedophilia by an Adventist pastor making it into the media. We must be better at covering it up than the Catholic hierarchy. 

2/3 of US bishops let accused priests continue to work
by Brooks Egerton and Reese Dunklin, Dallas Morning News - June. 13, 2002

"The News' review found that at least 111 of the nation's 178 mainstream, or Roman rite, Catholic dioceses are headed by men who have protected accused priests or other church figures, such as brothers in religious orders, candidates for the priesthood, teachers and youth-group workers.

Among the 111 are all eight cardinals who lead American archdioceses, bishops in at least 40 states, and most members of the bishops committee that drafted the policy up for discussion.”

"much that is similar has gone on in our denomination.”?!  Do you mean that a super majority of those who are now SDA conference presidents and union presidents helped to shuffle similar perpetrators from church to church, thus exposing other innocent children to the horrors of abuse? Do you propose that this kind of administrative behavior has gone on for decades? Do you propose that the General Conference has consistently resisted bringing any of these church leaders to accountability – that the General conference President even personally brought one of the most egregious offenders to Silver Springs and arranged for him to get a cush pastoral position there against the protests of hundreds of victims?

Or how about the Ryan report in Ireland. The 9 year study revealing the horrors of Irelands Catholic Industrial Schools:

The Irish Times called the report "a devastating indictment of Church and State authorities, "the map of an Irish hell." "The sheer scale and longevity of the torment inflected on defenseless children – over 800 known abusers in over 200 Catholic institutions during a period of 35 years – should alone make it clear that it was not accidental or opportunistic but systematic. Abuse was not a failure of the system. It was the system."…“religious officials encouraged ritual beatings and consistently shielded their orders amid a "culture of self-serving secrecy", and that government inspectors failed to stop the abuses. Sexual abuse was endemic in boys’ institutions.”

“much that is similar has gone on in our denomination.”?! Do you mean that a nation where we have one of the highest concentrations of Adventists and Adventist schools - engaged in the systematic, perpetration of sadistic, ritualistic, physical, emotional and sexual abuse of thousands of defenseless children over the course of 50 years in collusion with governmental authorities and then successfully litigated to have none of the perpetrators names revealed?

We need to remember that the inquistion was in reality Christ's arch-enemy's attack on God's children. The Catholic church was Satan's tool to destroy God's Children. The dark ages lasted for over 1,000 years. This was a horrible time to have lived in the world. Despite the inquisition being apparently 'disbanded' don't be fooled. We can suggest to ditch Ellen White, but that will not alter the truth that the Devil will through the Papacy bring the destruction and persecution of God's children again, and yes, in this modern enlightened age it will happen again. The Papacy is only behaving like a lamb at the moment because this is what serves Satan best. Persecution on a grand scale will rise again.

Examine what Rome really stands for. As of the 1960s the Vatican controlled a full two thirds of the entire wealth of the planet. The very word Vatican taken from the word 'Vaticanus' means 'the place of divination' Doesn't scripture describe Rome as the 'cage of every unclean and hateful bird'?

To say that Daniel and Revelation is not to be understood by lay Christians is to accede to the old Roman Catholic stance during the dark ages that the Bible was not to be understood by the laity and should only be interpreted by the Priests.

If the books of Daniel are not relevant to our lives, we may as well abandon any belief in God or the coming Kingdom of Christ and join the evolutionists who teach there is no God and that we arrived from a primordial soup. We would be more guilty than them of denying God.

The word 'Revelation' means revealing. Should we decide as mere mortals which of God's inspired books of the bible or His prophets be ditched because we do not understand them?

Consider if any of us were born in Noah's day. He warned the world for 100 or 120 years that there was going to be a catastrophic global flood that would destroy all life not protected in the ark. Up until then it had never rained. Imagine being a child of say, 5, when we began to hear him delivering that warning, fifty years later we were married, had children and the flood still had not come, we then hit the age of 95, were now grand-parents or great-grand-parents, it still hadn't rained. By then we would have had 90 years of mocking and jeering the old man, calling him an old crack because what he was saying was not in accordance with the common order of things at the time, in that it never rained. Would that still have altered the fact that God gave him a message of warning and that there really was going to be a flood?

I believe this is the scenario we are facing now, because the Lord has delayed His coming we are concluding that the message cannot be correct and therefore the messenger is to be ditched. Let us not fall into this trap of the enemy satan. Daniel and Revelation and all the other books of the bible have beautiful truths in them and if one prefers to be guided by the bible and the bible only, one will still be able to find from scripture that the whore of revelation is the Papacy. The Devil is certainly not going to get over his fixation to have us all destroyed with him and if he can destroy our confidence in the truths of the bible or His humble servant, Ellen White, then he, the devil has won. He will never, ever, ever, let up in his efforts to win. The holy word makes it plain in 1 Peter 5:8-11 "Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour..." Allowing our personal ideas of God's prophet to stand in the way of truth for these last days will surely place us directly in satan's path to be devoured. To effectively destroy a message, one must destroy the messenger.

Question! Is Daniel & Revelation to be regarded as non-prophetic because they plainly state the role of the Papacy right to the end of time when Christ ushers in His new Kingdom?

Also, has the developments of late in the financial world rung any alarm bells in the minds of bible-believing Christians? Are we missing the facts that compulsory closing of shops on Sundays is already happening in Parts of Europe? That EU laws are calling for Sunday as a rest-day, all under the direction of the Papacy? Are Christians aware that the take over of banks by Governments all over the world, in the supposed 'Global Financial Crisis' is part of the final grand-plan to control the world's money where we will not be able to buy or sell unless we surrender to the powers that be? What power is behind this mass take-over? The Papacy. Wake up brothers and sisters, do not lose your way right at the line. We are no longer living in the 'signs of the times' we are living in the 'time of the signs' Rejoice, for the coming of the Master draweth nigh.

Don't lose hope, Jesus is knocking at the door. Let's make our calling and election sure

I'd have to agree with you on that. Catholic priests have taken a new approach. Rome when in the minority behaves like a lamb. When in the majority however behaves like a wolf, as was seen in ancient Europe. 

Why am I not surprised that there are ministers among us who are trying to influence us in thinking differently towards the RCC?  Hasn't it been predicted by the very same prophetess/Messenger that he is trying to downplay?

His line of reasoning doesn't make sense either. The fact is both prophets Daniel and John were very specific in identifying what exactly was the anti-Christ system all about.

There can only be one system that fulfils all the requirements that were highlighted in both books, and that religio-political system can only be the RCC. 

History has already began to reveal it, and soon the future will seal it. 

Elaine Nelson:

Your comments asking for proof of Jesuit infiltration remind me of the Jewish leaders asking Jesus to give them proof of His Messiahship, by working some miracle when he had worked hundreds of miracles even raising the dead to life on multiple occaisions. It's plain to see that if he had given them proof by working yet another miracle they would have denied that as well. Who cares if someone is a Jesuit or not, if they are undermining the plainest teachings of the Bible and Spirit of Prophecy, they are working for Satan, which is worse than merely being a Jesuit, or spiritualist or islamic extremest or what ever!

While Satan is trying to destroy the church, it is not for humans to designate exactly who is operating at his commands.  Anyone can be labeled "Satanic" if it doesn't happen to agree with his interpretation of Scripture or the SOP. 

 Christ said to leave the tares and wheat to grow together and at the harvest, HE, not we humans, will separate.  Just as he will separate the sheep from the goats, it is not who says, "Lord, Lord," but those that care for the sick, widowed, poor, and hungry; nothing about holding correct doctrinal beliefs.  Otherwise, it will be difficult even gathering 144k. 

"brendap, as I said in the piece, Roman Catholics still merit our scrutiny, but so do many other movements. I'm suggesting that we broaden our view in trying to spot threats to liberty."

Let us not froget who is behind all the threats to liberty. 

In points 5 & 6, Loren points out that other groups such as Nazis and extreme Islamists have and still are committing acts of persecution. Do you not realize the connection between the Papacy and theses groups? These groups are puppets and the one controlling the strings is the RCC. They are all controlled by the great puppet master, satan.

It's very simple:  the RCC is the "bogey man" behind all things seen as deleterious to "God's People."  We are our own worst enemy by projecting to others the control we wish to have for ourself.