AToday Forums Discussion Excerpt
The following is an excerpt from a forum discussion on our web site. This is a free and open forum and indicates one part of what is available online. There is also a "comments section" available in the archives of AT. Please visit us online: www.atoday.com. Some of this conversation was edited for space constraints.
Elaine Nelson (Elaine) on Friday, September 29, 2000 08:53 pm:
How does a new organizational structure come into being when leadership and other personnel are so constantly shifted around? There is total loss of continuum and loss of rapport for everyone involved. Is it a wonder? Our SS class has been studying for several months a book on decision making and the will of God. Tomorrow we will be discussing how that applies to group decisions such as:
Determining the kind of music acceptable to the church
Deciding on women's ordination
Spending money on programs
Electing an officer for the organization
Determining the local church's autonomy
The issue of dress
The curriculum in schools
Does the process change for the local church government?
Who or what is the final authority for decision making?
All this, with the idea of "unity" and the need emphasized by Pres. Jan Paulsen's article in recent review and the manner in which the church decides doctrinal or fundamental beliefs and practice. How has the church tried to maintain "uniformity" throughout the world, and should there be a uniformity of all believers no matter their location or culture? Should the members support the church's decision if it is contrary to their principles? What philosophy should the individual member have regarding the church's decisions?
Daniel Deakins (Ddeakins) on Friday, September 29, 2000 - 09:22 pm:
Well, it appears a good starting point for at least the local church would be to have a clear goal as to what an SDA church is all about. Do we individually know what goal our individual church has for itself?
An example of one goal: suppose the goal of Boeing was to build an airplane. That is a poor goal. On the other hand the goal of building an airplane that can go around the world ten times without refueling gives it direction and meaning. From that point the second action steps can be added in.
For the second part, when we understand that goal do we know what our strategy is to reach that goal? I doubt it. Does the local church have a goal and a strategy? If so, where is it posted? If Boeing had their 10 lap airplane they would have some defining criteria to provide for some solid strategy to make it happen (sounds like a satellite airplane to me).
In my experience these goals are vague, if there are any at all. That leaves people to go the church's pathway willy-nilly (as it relates to a group doing things together).
Claudia Burrow (Claudiaburrow) on Saturday, September 30, 2000 - 02:42 pm:
Hello All: I know how the church deals with "honest" dissent...They run truth out of the church in favor of those who espouse the New Theology and those who support it. And real truth is dealt with as the Church Leadership dealt with Jesus Christ when He "honestly dissented." We all know where he ended up!
The Church deals in a way with "honest dissenters" as Rome does, by crushing them out as best they can.
Please read these Bible verses and think about it: Eph:6:1,4: Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right... And, ye fathers, provoke not your children to wrath: but bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.
It is the children's responsibility (Church Members) to obey their Elders (Church Leadership), but when the Church Leadership "provokes the children to wrath" in how they deal with their honest dissent, then who is it that is really responsible for the results? Read how a spirit of domination in the Church Leadership leads to a rebellious attitude on the part of the Church Members: Testimonies to Ministers and Gospel Workers, page 362, Ellen White "The spirit of domination is extending to the presidents of our conferences. If a man is sanguine of his own powers and seeks to exercise dominion over his brethren, feeling that he is invested with authority to make his will the ruling power, the best and only safe course is to remove him, lest great harm be done and he lose his own soul and imperil the souls of others. ?All ye are brethren.? This disposition to lord it over God's heritage will cause a reaction unless these men change their course.
"Those in authority should manifest the spirit of Christ. They should deal as He would deal with every case that requires attention. They should go weighted with the Holy Spirit. A man's position does not make him one jot or tittle greater in the sight of God; it is character alone that God values."
The problem I see here is that it appears the Church Leadership is, by showing this article, trying to cast the blame upon the Church Members... for not following their idea of "proper dissension."
The Church Leadership "ignores the parental character of God" in His merciful, kind, compassionate dealings with man, and they follow the example of Satan instead, in being more like a dictatorship...
The honest-hearted dissenting Church Members are pressed into hard places by the Leadership, and they feel forced to resort to other means to be heard, then they are blamed for being "rebels."
But who is it that is really at fault here?
J. R. Layman (Jrlayman) on Saturday, September 30, 2000 - 04:02 pm:
Claudia: RE:"the Church Leadership is, by showing this article, trying to cast the blame upon the Church Members... for not following their idea of "proper dissention". Interesting analysis, I'll buy that. So now we must obtain their permission for what style of dissent we practice, otherwise we?re condemned?
Elaine Nelson (Elaine) on Saturday, September 30, 2000 - 07:30 pm:
Sorry, I totally disagree. We, the members, are not to obey our elders. The church doesn't function in a parent-child relationship; we are the church comprising the priesthood of all believers and as such, it is only in community with unity of Spirit can we work together. Leaders are not to give orders; we are not to obey anyone but God and our Spirit-filled conscience.
A visitor in our SS class this morning (from a town up north) had been a member of the church there and she told how they were so strict that she was asked not to use a taped accompaniment to her singing (formerly she was in The Heritage Singers). The church at one time a few years ago had 300+ members; today there are about 30! Guess few of them passed inspection, or the inspectors at the door!
By Becky Schmidt (Beck) on Sunday, October 1, 2000 - 03:53 am:
My, my, my, I can't pass up this rare and illustrious opportunity to agree with Elaine. When all is said and done, it be just me who has to be accountable for my deeds. Spiritual leadership is a gift and while there are those who are not gifted who serve as spiritual leaders, there are many who serve one another in good stead. Many spiritual leaders have sacrificed their entire lives to honest, authentic service to God and fellow spiritual travelers.
Certainly, our own spiritual awareness and search can be guided by healthy, Spirit-led leadership. (1Cor.12,13)
Daniel Deakins (Ddeakins) on Sunday, October 1, 2000 - 01:18 pm:
On the other hand the New Testament speaks volumes on the concept of God's people being part of "family." My take on a family is a group working together with as much harmony as possible.
Guess I can see merit on both Claudia's and Elaine's views. Problem is they both sound very good.
Elaine Nelson (Elaine) on Sunday, October 1, 2000 - 04:47 pm:
Know any dysfunctional families? Church suffers from same family descriptions, can't it?
By Claudia Burrow (Claudiaburrow) on Sunday, October 1, 2000 - 08:56 pm:
HOW TO DEAL WITH THE BIG PEOPLE IN AUTHORITY
Has there ever been a time in your life when you just didn't want to go somewhere, didn't want to do something? Yet you did it anyway because that was what was expected of you. That was what everyone else thought that you should do.
When were we taught that it is okay to say what you feel when you feel it? As children we are taught what to say and what not to say if it will make others uncomfortable. The others are big people. We are taught to honor those in authority. Don't talk when the big people are talking. Don't express your ideas if they are different from the big people's ideas. These are the people that we must honor. In honoring the big people we are taught to dishonor ourselves.
We must learn to tell the truth about what we feel, what we want, and what we think. However, as a child, if we have a spontaneous outburst of truth about big people, these clearly observed acts of hypocrisy about big people were not to be discussed or challenged.
Eventually this group of big people grew into elders, employers, and others in authority positions. You knew better than to offend them because they might have something that you needed or wanted. Always the vulnerability, and the having to do what someone else desired. Not honoring your own feelings and opinions.
You find it difficult to speak up for yourself. This denial of what you want, what you need and feel spreads all throughout your life, your relationships. Afraid to go against your husband's wishes, afraid to speak up in a room full of people if their opinion happens to be different than your own. It prohibits your finding the most appropriate ways of responding when your sensibilities are offended by the big people.
Eventually, not honoring what you feel, when you feel it, will turn into anger or rage. It pollutes your relationships. Family relationships. Professional relationships. Personal and intimate relationships. Finally you come to realize that you are somebody important, just as important as anybody else. But you also realize that you should give an answer without purposely offending the other person. And so what are you to do?
You must honor what you feel, honor your own opinion, by saying it the way you would want to hear it. When you say it honestly and with love, then your job is done. And nobody, and I mean not a living soul, has the right to put you down for doing that. Nobody has the right to define what the proper way of saying it to "the big people" ought to be. Only you... for Jesus said, "Treat others as you would want to be treated." Only you know how that would be.
Daniel Deakins (Ddeakins) on Sunday, October 1, 2000 - 10:23 pm:
When I think of family relationships I think of my family. I hold the opinion that underlings in time will outdo our own abilities through better education, experiences, new thought processes, and so on. At least I thought that is how progress came about over the years. If this is true it might be a good idea to listen to what underlings say for a change. Does anyone know if the official "parents" from the East listen to underlings?
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