Bill, Sacramento Central church is literally across the street from Cal State, Sacramento. If you want to find out how effective the Adventist outreach is on secular campuses, where is a better place to look?

The pastor is one of the premier "soulwinners" in Adventism.

It is for certain that the typical type of evangelistm conducted by Amazing Facts and similar, will be totally ineffective with college and university students. What are some of the methods that have been used that have been successful?  

As this is a very different type of ministry from the one used for over  100 years, please give us more information on projected programs and where they have been used, or where they are currently operating.

Having a 1000 word limit, I figured I could get into some specific things in conversation with you all. :-)

One form of evangelism that many ACF chapters have been involved in, together with other Christians, is the Veritas Forum. http://veritas.org/ This was started by Kelly Monroe Kullberg at Harvard University, and has spread to hundreds of secular campuses. It's aim is to engage the campus and demonstrate that Christians are part of the academic community and interested in dialogue. I've helped organize Veritas events at UC Santa Barbara and at Rice University. Over the course of a weekend or a week, various presentations are given, on topics like philosophy, theology, apologetics, art, music, history, etc. We had speakers like Peter Kreeft, Madeline L'Engle, William Lane Craig, Bruce Kuhn, Jeannette Clift George, etc.

This is a form of evangelism in which Adventists, Lutherans, Baptists, Greek Orthodox, Catholics, Presbyterians, and others can come together and show both the commonality of Christian witness as well as to show some of their own distinctives. Discussion and dialogue is critical.

Another form of witness is through "ministry of presence"--one on one or small group conversation in dorms or coffee shops.

Another form is small group discussion and Bible study. "The Word on Campus" and its workbooks have some resources for this.

Students are under a lot of stress today. I sat down earlier this year with a friend who is director of student health services at a major university (40K+ students). He has three psychiatrists on staff who are kept busy. Students are suffering from depression in record levels. I think a great need could be filled by Adventist ministries offering seminars in healthful living, balanced lifestyle, etc.

I've sent an e-mail to our ACF discussion list, and asked others to join in this conversation, with examples of what they are doing.

Bill, I observed the work of the ICOC (Boston Movement) in Los Angeles for a couple of years. After it became obvious to them that I wasn't joining up, it became difficult to even find where they were holding services on Sunday or prayer meeting during the week. People were normally informed by their friends, people with whom they were studying the Bible. The point being that if you weren't with them, they didn't need or want any hangers on.

Prayer meetings were primarily for members who met in small groups. Each small group leader contacted members who were absent to find out if there was a problem. If you were a member, you were expected to be in prayer meeting with your money. The leaders also collected tithes and offerings from the members and held them accountable for systematic giving. 

They were constantly on the move, going from rented hotel meeting rooms to local theatres to the parks. They were banned from a few campuses. I would, however, describe them as a spirit filled group of people. I heard Kip McKean preach a couple of times, once to a packed hall at the L.A. Convention Center. His sermon was electrifying and the young people were on their feet, praising God.

Many young people were having life changing encounters with Jesus Christ. They were not primarily former  drug addicts, alcoholics, and assorted other losers which Adventism seems to have a knack for attracting. They were medical students, young attorneys, university students, physicians, residents, and other professional types. Cal tech had an ICOC study group whose members attended church. Of course, there were people from other walks of life, rough around the edges.

For every one of those, there was a military academy graduate, an artist, a beauty queen. I was astounded at the caliber of people drawn into that church, nearly all 30 or below.

At Fuller, I encountered some seminary students who were death on the ICOC. Of course, they had never been to a service, were not eye witnesses, but had believed the bad reports carried by those who resented the accountability, the self sarifice, the discipline, to which the ICOC was calling them. Kip set out to bring about a revival in the mainline CoC but abandoned his plan when he realized how much enegy he would have to spend fighting the old guard, those who would also shut out the very ones Kip wanted to reach.

Kip was a radical person and wanted radical disiples. He learned some tough lessons along the way but he hasn't given up. Although I haven't followed his career of late, I'm sure he can still get a group of young people "fired up" for Jesus. Something that will require a miracle to take place in Adventism  

I use the example of the Boston Church of Christ as a case study in courses I have taught on campus ministry--I believe it an example of manipulation, control, and genuinely cultlike behavior. That's why it was banned from most College campuses. Instead of engaging with the campus, they took students away from their classes. Instead of enriching their lives, they insulated them. Here is a lot of documentation: http://www.rickross.com/groups/icc.html

But I think I take your point--here's a group that managed to have a radical impact across a wide spectrum of students throughout the nation in a short period of time. While we ...

Bill, I guess it shouldn't surprise me that the Boston Movement has such bad press. Having attended over a two year period and fellowshipped with many of the people, I would have to disagree with your negative evaluation.

Rick Ross could trash any denomination, including Adventism, by gathering reports from disaffected individuals. If Adventism was characterized by just some of the people here and on Spectrum, or former Adventists, what kind of picture would emerge?

It does surprise me that you would let Rick Ross shape your thinking about ICOC if you are ignoring the multitudes who were blessed by the church and were glad to be part of it. Many Christian homes were established on Christian principles thanks to the rigors of ICOC discipleship.

ICOC was doing exactly what was required to attract a high caliber of young people, most of whom would never set foot in an Adventist church. No need to. They had a private nite club in Hollywood where members and their friends socialized and heterosexual couples courted in safe situations.

I stopped by the Hollywood SDA church once or twice and was greeted by a somewhat effeminate man who reminded me way too much of the  homosexuals I  encountered in the art world and other places that I hoped to avoid as a Christian. The Hollywood SDA church was a short walk from the UpsideDown Club.

Most American youth have been raised in an atmosphere permeated by lasciviousness, immorality, violence, and corruption. Some seminary students live in open sin with their girlfriends or, now, boyfriends 

 Not so in the ICOC.

I'll give you an example of the background of a few of the people i met and spent time with:

BT, Graduate of the U.S. Naval Academy, former fighter pilot, Pastor. Fantastic testimony of how his marriage was healed through Christian intervention of ICOC

RS Graduate of MIT, electrical engineering. Graduate, USC school of law. Patent attorney in Los Angeles.

SS LCSW, employed by the state of California. Met her while she was witnessing to a Muslim

TS, fiancee of SS. DDS, working toward advanced dental degree

AA, Medical student. Beautiful testimony of how she was convinced through the ICOC to  totally dedicate her life to Christ. 

AB, Medical resident . Both AB and AC below were actively involved in discipling others

AC Practicing physician.

CA,CB,CC Students, California institute of Technology

LL Premed student at Cal Berkeley. Left school to pursue ministerial work with ICOC. Both his parents also attended

PP PB Graduates of USF  PB was pastoring. His wife was a former  beauty queen. Former RCs 

I was personally acquainted with most of the people mentioned above. There were multitudes I didn't know.

It isn't a case of accepting Rick Ross's opinion. Those links on his webpage go to many different sources. This is the common conclusion of just about everyone of every denomination working in the field of campus ministry. Because of the abusive actions of the Boston movement, most universities have established codes of conduct for campus ministries. To have access to campus, you must agree not to engage in destructive, manipulative practices. See, for example, the statement of the Harvard University chaplains: http://chaplains.harvard.edu/about_us.php

There are people with similar backgrounds in other destructive movements. Brains and breeding do not keep you from being manipulated. You can still have a spiritual hunger and longing for love and community that misguided people can take advantage of.

There's nothing in scripture to support the sort of "discipleship" theory where someone submits their will to that of another person. You gave some good descriptions of their manipulative, secretive behavior when speaking about their changing of meeting place. That in itself should be a red flag. Truth has no reason to hide or be ashamed. Openness and transparency must guide all we do, I believe. This means no phony labels, no failure to identify who is sponsoring something. (Yes, this sword does cut two ways).

Bill, I never expected to have an argument with you about the ICOC. Certainly you can understand that I am simply reporting  what I observed over a period of a couple of years. The red flag of which you speak, I never thought of as such. The constant movement reminded me more of the celestial beings in Ezekiel than any secretive behavior on their part.

People who were interested enough to study the Bible with them knew where to meet. I was tolerated because I had a personal relationship with an individual whose family members held important positions in the administration.

Of course, I'm not going to look at all the sources listed. The few I did scan were not impressive. Remember, I was there. I know what I saw and experienced. Sure, many "conventional" ministries opposed the ICOC. Few of those who did could hold a candle to the dynamic preaching manifested by Kip mcKean. Most will never experience the kind of revival being kindled by the ICOC, at that time, in that place. What they were doing was just right for some people, as evinced by numerous changed lives. For others, perhaps not so much.

I guess I should be impressed by the Harvard chaplaincy. Sorry , I'm not. When they have a spiritual revival on the Harvard campus comparable to what was going on in the ICOC, I'll pay more attention. 

What's interesting in this discussion is this: You write an article about reaching young people on secular campuses. I respond with an eyewitness account of a ministry that was doing quite well at what Adventism has failed to do. You oppose their techniques as cultish, manipulative, abusive because of the reports of many people who left the church.

How many people do you know or have spoken to who had a good experience with the church? Whatever koolaid they were serving was having quite a positive effect on the lives of numerous highly educated and attractive young people, something I have never experienced in any other church.

With all due respect, as long as you continue to oppose what was happening there, I wonder if you will ever experience it? If you had already, I doubt that you would have written an article like this one.

I wonder how many of those "legitimate" campus ministries will ever experience anything comparable to the good things that were  happening in the ICOC.

I suspect that since I was not a member and refused to discuss my personal affairs with church members, I avoided a lot of the things that offended others. I probably also missed out on blessings available to those who were willing to submit to the discipleship program.

In the end, I had a great time there, made some wonderful friends, and bless the Lord for the opportunity to worship him in the diverse venues offered by the ICOC. For those who had a different experience, I offer my condolences.

www.cleansanctuary.blogspot.com

The record of the Boston movement is plain and easily researched. Their track record has been consistent from Boston to Los Angeles over many years. I don't want to experience what they promulgated, and I don't want students to be led down that path.

We cannot allow manipulative "discipleship" methods to get a foothold in our outreach to students.No matter how much emotion is stirred up, students are left scarred in the end.

You note that your involvement was on the periphery. I'm glad you didn't get sucked in further. I hope all will heed the warnings of those who did, and of the campus ministers and college staff members who had to pick up the pieces.

A safeguard to this is by ensuring that all people doing campus ministry in the name of the Seventh-day Adventist church are trained, endorsed by Adventist Chaplaincy Ministries, and accountable to both their local conference and to their campus ministry peers. And to ensure that our ministry is transparent.

Bill, I'll respond to a few more points.

You don't want to experience what they experienced.

What many were experiencing was a call to radical discipleship, Christian morality, the establishment of a blessed Christian home, the peace of acceptance with God and the forgiveness of sin. The sacrificial giving awakened many to the concept of unselfishness and complete commitment to Jesus as well as experimental religion.

You don't want emotion stirred up.

I never experienced any playing to emotions. Once I heard a young and inexperienced preacher go over the line in his zeal; however, I have heard other popular preachers go over the line as well, men who should know better.

The kind of emotions I saw being stirred up were those experienced by a young couple when they joined together in marriage after a chaste courtship or treated each with respect and dignity before marrying, or the devotion of a transformed father who, in the past was scheming for a divorce and hoping to abandon his young family.

The best of course, were the testimones, the tears of joy when people baptized their friends, or testified about their new life in Christ, or challenged others to holiness. Sure, people were angry when their sins were exposed or their carnal appetites denied. That's what happens when people are confronted by a call to discipleship or brought under the convicting power of the Holy Spirit. People must either submit or rebel.

A lot of the evil reports circulated about the ICOC are the consequence of rebellion. Certainly a guy who is used to having sex with a girl he never plans to marry is going to be angry when she becomes a "disciple" and moves in with a group of Christian sisters, denying his lust. Praise God. The ICOC taught young men to stop treating their girlfriends like whores and restored  self respect to  young women in the process. Do you have a problem with that?

Did Billy Graham play to emotions when he preached? Kip's preaching was attended by the same convicting power. It brought young people to their feet and elicited praise to God from from youth steeped in modern American culture. Adventism can only dream about such things, or criticize them when they happen. 

All the training and endorsing and certifying, for what? The people doing the training and endorsing have no real clue about campus ministries, not of the caliber being done by the ICOC. ICOC was a spirit filled and led movement. The Holy Spirit was shaking people up, including the stuffy, pharaisical, Laodicean, clerical types, the same kind of people who rose up against Christ for fear of loosing their influence and positions.

I attended numerous ICOC services, fellowshipped, dined, visited in their homes. I saw their pastors reach out to the unsaved, experienced the kindly pastoral attitude of a leader during a discussion about the Sabbath. Which of their well known preachers did you listen to? How many times did you worship, pray, dine, or fellowship with members and their pastors? Ever see thousands of young people rise as one man in praise to God during a sermon?

If you personally had some bad experiences, i'd be interested in hearing about them. If you are merely carrying a bad report about something which you are personally unacquainted, well....

Was the ICOC without mistake? No. Their problems are well known Neither were the disciples who spent years with Jesus, flawless. Neither are you nor I nor the certified chaplains who would grieve the Spirit of God off their campuses before allowing God to work in his way in the lives of young people.

Your attitude is exactly the reason neither you nor Adventism will  experience the kind of spirit led revival you claim to seek. You want God to work, on your terms, in a way that is comfortable for you. It won' t happen. The HS won't consult you or have a meeting before it works in someone's life or on a college campus.

The Harvard chaplain's statement contains mostly code which means we don't want anything that effects the status quo happening on our campus, especially if it impacts our ability to control. 

When I became a Christian, I experienced alienation, marginalization, isolation from my family and peers. How can a Christian not? People who are converted  realize that the things they did are wrong The things their friends and family are doing are wrong.

When the Spirit of God transforms a life, it should have a radical impact on that person's life and may include or require a radical change in the course of his/her life. Real Christianity is not the same ol', same ol'. Kip understood that. Apparently you do not.

Among your defenses of the ICOC group, and your dispute over whether its methods may have been controlling and manipulative, this statement speaks volumes to me:
 > "I suspect that since I was not a member and refused to discuss
 > my personal affairs with church members, I avoided a lot of the
 > things that offended others."

Yes, and therefore maybe also avoided the very manipulations that are the subject of your dispute.  If it was such a wonderful and Spirit-led movement, why were you reluctant to share personally with the others in it? 

I think you might be overlooking their problems in your zeal to promote their radical-ness and enthusiasm.

Dennis, I realize very clearly some of the problems the ICOC was having. I chose to not join up with them. I was  quite a bit older than most of the "disciples". I was  already aware of the issues in my life which they would have called me on. I chose to deal with them in another way.

One young disciple did get into some of my business. Frankly, it was offensive and did make me angry; however, upon reflection, I realized what he was saying was right. Had I cooperated with the ICOC, my life would have no doubt taken a radical turn. Perhaps I should have.

These people were not trained psychologists. They were simply calling sin by its right name, calling for repentance and surrender, requiring accountability. Considering the harm or uselessness of many psych approaches to sin, I can hardly fault the ICOC for plain speaking.

I spent a lot of time with these people, visited them in their homes, studied and fellowshipped with them. In the end, I believe that the Spirit of God was using the ICOC to bless a lot of young people. When God moves, things happen, things that make a lot of people uncomfortable, even angry.

When Jesus was on earth, there was a lot of controversy regarding his ministry. A lot of bad reports, confusion, arguments. Enough people believed the reports, were confused enough, bad enough, to have Jesus crucified. 

The  ICOC leadership was well aware that fornication, premarital sex, and goofing around were standard for most young people. Many of the youth  were likely products of dysfunctional families. They longed for stability, moral certainty, a Christian relationship.

Those things are being destroyed in American society. ICOC offered a plan to help young people avoid immorality and establish Christian homes. It required an extreme change in behavior, accountability, and dedication. Those willing to comply were richly rewarded.    

If the ICOC did nothing else but set some Christian young couples on a path to a happy life together, they would have accomplished a lot. They took some good ideas too far, no doubt. Kip, himself, paid dearly. Some of the people I knew had their own lives thrown into turmoil. Those things happen. The Christian experience is not business as usual. It may turn your life upside down.

Adventism is so far out of touch with American youth,  it is virtually irrelevant. The ICOC was in touch.

Sac Central, where I attended for a few years, is across the street from Sac State. During my time there, I was unaware of any serious effort being made to reach young people on that campus. Doug Batchelor certainly has a burden for souls. If the SDA church is serious about doing something for the youth, Sac Central is a dream place from which to work. The LDS have a special place across from the university to support their own youth and "minister" to others.

Maybe things have changed at Sac central. Maybe, something is being done. Maybe something was always being done. Perhaps lives are being transformed, through Christian conversion, repentance, preaching of the gospel, Bible study.

I spent a lot of time with university students for a few years in my locale. I simply went to a place where they congregate and started talking about Jesus. I'm still talking about Him.

Lots of things have been done in the name of the Spirt. Scripture is very clear we must "test the spirits to see whether they are of God." "By their fruits you shall know them." We know the fruits of this manipulative cult. It was all about control. About assigning students "disciplers" to whom they had to confess their sins and submit to obedlience.There's plenty by Kip McKean available on line ... and it's easy to read of the legacy of his churches, too.

I do hope we will be joined by some people who would like to get this conversation back on track!

I want to thank Bill for posting this report on the 180 Symposium as well as increasing the exposure and need of Adventist ministry on public college campuses. The coments between him and Dennis Hansen have only helped to deepen the need for strong campus ministry spiritual direction and leadership both for Adventist students and those outside our church.

In reviewing the back and forth comments I can appreciate where I believe Dennis is coming from - a deep appreciation for what at least appears on the surface as a deeply spiritual and challenging Christian movement. Something we would like to see more of within our own denomination and especially among our students on secular campuses. I was initially both blessed and surprised by the seriousness and biblical rigor that I witnessed among many other Christian campus groups when I first started out in campus ministry over 25 years ago. The truth is many of the staff workers from Campus Crusade For Christ and InterVarsity and even some of the main line Christian denominations operating on campus quickly became mentors to me in how to really reach students. However, in my years of experience on college campuses I have seen groups come and go. For several years in a row a guy would show up on the University of Tennessee campus in Knoxville dragging a cross, wearing simple clothes and would stand in the main campus thorough fares with his embarrassed and beaten down wife and daughter literally yelling at students about the way they dressed and how they lived, announcing they were all going to hell.

The ICOC is not this guy, however we had a rough time with them at UTK since the pastor and director refused to recognize any other ministry except his own as the real Christian church. All other groups and organizations were not legitimate Christian organizations by their standards. The only baptism they would recognize was the one they had performed and students complained about being high pressured and isolated from their families and other groups by the ICOC group.

Dennis talks about being very impressed and challenged spiritually which I can understand and appreciate. It is true that some of the standards they were calling students too were very straight forward - something needed and often lacking in many Christian clubs today. However, the exclusivism and high pressure eventually forced the university to ban them from our campus. Grace was more of a limited atonement based on a students willingness to submit to their standards and the leadership of the group. Cults do prey on students and cult practices have to be called out in the open for the sake of the spiritual well fare of the students. That's part of the responsibility of Christian leadership. Which brings me back to Bill's original intent of this article - a call for strong and effective campus ministry efforts that reaches students with the claims of Christ and calls them to holiness right in the midst of the secular campus environment. it is an ebarrassment to our church that we have too often accepted the notion that Adventist's cannot do campus ministry - something untrue and very mistaken. We have many successful Adventist public campus ministry programs which prove our effectiveness. Like Sacramento Central SDA Church, unfortunately we have too many SDA churches right across the street from a major campus with little or no campus ministry outreach there - which I believe was Dennis's original point. In the end I hope this will change and pray that we will begin to support the efforts of reaching out to our campuses as Bill encourages us to do here - whether the students we reach are large or small in number, there are many to reach for Christ (some 19 million attending public campuses in the NAD). The point is - let's get doing it and stop talking about it or gnawing away at each other. Let's pool our efforts and pray for the leading of the Holy Spirit to reach students for Christ!

Won x one: Transforming the campus one student at a time.Ronald R. PickellACF: Adventist ministry of, by and for college students on public college campuses. www.acflink.org

Bill raised an interesting objection to the ICOC concept of "confession". When dealing with young people, many who became sexually active at quite a young age, sometimes it is necessary to probe deeply into their lives. EGW referred to "secret vice," which, is apparently universal, at least among Adventists, if  Adventist psychology professors are to be believed.

My only experience with this centered around a young couple. The girl had three abortions, thanks to her wealthy boyfriend who "kept" her in an apartment near her university.

Some of the sisters from the ICOC got a hold of this young girl and discovered what had happened and was still happening. Next time her boyfriend showed up, he was directed to stay with some of the young men from ICOC. The guy would no longer be cohabiting at his convenience, whether he was paying for her apartment or not.

This young girl, was carrying a horrible load of guilt and despair. Because of the ICOC practice, her boyfriend was set straight and the girl experienced relief from her burden. Eventually, they both became "disciples," married, and went into gospel work.

At least in this case, "confession" had a real practical benefit. More mature young women, outraged at the conduct of the young man, confronted him with the girl. They provided a practical alternative. He could stay with some Christian young men. Sure, they got into his "business," which happened to be irresponsible sex leading to mulitple abortions.

He, unlike many of those who are death on the ICOC, accepted the rebuke and changed his life. Lots of people who took the other path, well, you can read their rants on some of the anti ICOC websites.

Most people want to cover their outrageous and wicked behavior under the guise of privacy. Won't fly in the ICOC.

Were there abuses? Sure. There was also a lot of good that came from holding young people accountable for their conduct.

Strange that the RC church, which has a documented history of sex crimes against young people, is allowed to operate on many campuses. On the other hand, the ICOC, which works to prevent such things, is banned.

E J Irish, New Visionary Network, Kansas City

Facebook <http://www.facebook.com/ejirish?ref=profile>

Email: GENERALoffices@newVISIONary.mobi 

This is indeed a worthy vision, and one we have enthusiastically embraced at New Visionary Network. To date we are active and have teamed up with numerous campus ministries such as Campus Crusade for Christ, Young Life, International House of Prayer, I Am Second, See You At the Pole and other interdenominational Christian outreaches, even the Hillel Jewish groups.

We are active at University of Kansas Lawrence, University of Kansas Edwards Campus in Overland Park, Johnson County Community College, University of Missouri Kansas City and many public high schools in Johnson County, Kansas and Jackson County, Missouri.  

This is being done without one penny from the Kansas-Nebraska Conference, the Mid-America Union, the North American Division or the General Conference. Quite frankly, there has been little or no vision for it up until recently. In fact, we prefer no "help" from Conference entities if it would mean expectations to work in the traditional Adventist Daniel and Revelation approach.

The Conferences are cautious of these kinds of ministries for several reasons, not the least of which because of experiences in the past where they have funded alternative ministries focused on the young and then had some of the main leaders of these ministries go radically rogue as in "Former SDAs Gone Wild".

We do not lead with the Sabbath or beasts from Revelation, but with contemporary Christian music, Christian Worldview Weekends, What Would Jesus Do and Purpose Driven Life. We do not pick fights with other denominations by calling them bad names like "apostate Protestants" or insinuate that they are half-baked believers.  

We are content to let the Lord evaluate who is an authentic believer and who is not. In fact, we would assert that anyone who is willing to show up and speak up for Christ on a public university campus, like anyone who was willing to do so in the old Communist bloc, is probably a true and not a false believer because of the opposition, if not downright persecution, they are likely to receive at times -Sabbathkeeper or Sunday-goer.

 The prime opponent is not seen as Sunday churches or Sunday-going Christians, but the ever-growing post-modernism and secularism taking hold in America and particularly on American colleges and universities today. Basically, we provide an rational and biblical alternative to binge drinking, partying to excess, evolution indoctrination, spiritualism and losing your virginity as soon as possible during your Freshman year.

We see our main competition as Eastern mysticism, Transcendental Meditation, Hinduism, Islam, Shamanism and atheism - not Baptists, Presbyterians, Charismatics or Catholics.  We are not afraid if our prayer partners cross themselves after we pray together or raise their hands when we are praising God together.

The key is cooperation with other believers and unity in Christ, not competition or attempting to prematurely confront others doctrinally. We believe that trying to form theology in isolation from other denominational streams will always be incomplete theology and sometimes downright wrong theology.  

When the Huns of secularism are breaking down the gates of the Western Church and Western Civilization, all Christian believers are allies and friends fighting in the same righteous cause.  When the state is increasing and exceeding its constitutional authority and over-reaching to influence the next generation away from the church, then It is not the separation of church and state that is the main concern any more, but rediscovering the right balance of church and state again.

When Rome is about to burn, majoring in minors, creating distrust and disunity by constantly bringing up peripheral, non-essential beliefs is not just foolishness but dangerous ministerial malpractice. We retain belief in the six pillars of Adventism, but only share when someone asks and only after relationship has been firmly established.  

We lead with friendship evangelism, not Daniel and Revelation evangelism. We conduct praise and worship service, community service, and learn to pray together inter-denominationally with other leaders and believers for our friends, family and campus like Ellen White counseled in 6T 78. We encourage the faith of our local Kansas City Adventist students who are going to public university, and mentor them when they desire in sharing their faith in appropriate ways on campus.

We support Bill Cork's position and believe that it is long overdue. We are appealing to our fellow Adventists to come join in this marvelous work of God!  But... please do not come if you are thinking of trying to reinvent the wheel and think that the main goal is to create "Adventist ministries" on campus.

 It can be a difficult transition for Seventh-day separatists to mix it up with Gentiles, secular people and Christians from other denominations, without experiencing some degree of identity shock.  We believe the key is being grounded in the six pillars of Adventism, the essentials, before being immersed in the public university environment.

This is not a place for those who are not well planted in the basics of the faith. Paul warns of vain philosophies and intellectual temptations to depart from Christian orthodoxy (Col 2:7-8), and the university campus is resplendent with such ideas and opportunities. In fact, some Adventist colleges and universities might want to reexamine some of the philosophical teaching now allowed on some SDA campuses, not in a witch-hunt methodology but in humility, and with prayer and fasting by Adventist college administrators.

Many public university students are spiritually hungry and very open to spiritual things because of the huge spiritual vacuum in our culture today. We have learned to dive right into the middle of a wide spectrum of young people and thoroughly enjoy it.

When I was a religion major at La Sierra University I had the wonderful opportunity of student-teaching for Dr. Madelyn Haldeman in her Life and Teachings of Jesus class.  This experience inspired me to dream of perhaps becoming an instructor in the religion department at La Sierra someday.  But the Lord in His infinite wisdom did not so lead me. Instead, He lead me into this alternative campus ministry to public universities.  As much as I deeply appreciate what the administrators and faculties of our Adventist college and universities do, I am very glad He has lead me in this way.

 Learning to honor the entire body of Christ is something we Adventists need to improve. If we want spiritual success, we need to simply get behind what God is already doing. Put our sails up in the direction that the wind of the Spirit is already blowing.

What we need is cooperative Christian ministries working in unity with Christ and with each other, not a contest with other denominations over market share. But we need to balance doing valid pioneering ministry with basic loyalty to the six pillars of Adventism.  This is especially true if we are going to take Conference funding or until the Conference sees the benefit of getting involved with more truly interdenominational approaches.

If we are going to pioneer then let's pioneer! Back in the day, James and Ellen White would start ministries and publications, pray, and God would send them money providentially in the mail. There wasn't any Conference in those days, just God!

In a way it is a shame to deny the high adventure to the next generation of Adventist leaders that they can have only by being dependent primarily on God rather than the Conference.  The need is not over-dependence on the Conferences or complete independence from the Conferences, and certainly not rebellious loose-cannoning which attacks and accuses the Conferences of being "a system of deception through and through" as some are still doing, but a balanced interdependence with the Conferences.  However, healthy examples of this kind of functional interdependence are rare, but not impossible to achieve.

Without a loyalty oath to the six pillars, I don't blame the Conferences for being careful, but I also don't want their funding if we will then have to work in the strait jacket of traditional "D & R Evangelism" or in a cloud of Adventist paranoia and prejudice against other Christians.

If someone feels the call to do public university ministry, we recommend they take the leap, and trust God for both a successful working strategy and the funding. We have - and we're just fine - with or without Conference money.

Thanks for weighing in, Ron.

There is a hunger for spirituality, and connection, and meaning, as you point out. If we don't provide it, students will look elsewhere.

The need for leadership is the greatest need, I think. In the vacuum caused by the lack of it, we'll either do nothing, or we'll have all kinds of half-hearted, ill-equipped, variously-led endeavors. 

You highlight one of the problems with the ICOC (which members of my family did get approached by, in answer to Hansen's question):

"since the pastor and director refused to recognize any other ministry except his own as the real Christian church. All other groups and organizations were not legitimate Christian organizations by their standards."

There's a place we need to do some soul-searching. Hasn't Adventism done that, too? Can we effectively minister on campus if we take that approach?

Campus ministry is going to happen whether or not the organised church chooses to be a part of the conversation. How are young, enthusiastic students to start a ministry from scratch and avoid some of the common pitfalls mentioned here (Stanford prison experiment, anyone?) without someone experienced to at least turn to for advice? I worked with the Chaplains office at the University of Oklahoma, who set up an accountability structure that helped balance out my own deficiencies. I experienced significant personal growth and came to a deeper appreciation of discipleship.

So EJ, I hope you can stay in touch with your local pastor and conference people. It's good for everyone involved. All this really takes is time, but it takes a lot of time. Conference people might have less time to offer than money, which suggests there is a significant blind spot over this demographic.

Just want to be sure everyone here knows about the resource (in Ron Pickell's signature), http://www.acflink.org. You can ask questions and get thoughtful responses from seasoned ministry professionals, in addition to being a part of a community conversation to, as Bill says, cast the vision. Blake Laing